The Fundamental Mechanic

[Ron Edwards]

I think that's enough dogpiling on the new guy, everyone, regardless of his familiarity to you. Wait to see whether there's really a discussion here before posting further.

John, the next post is yours, if you'd like. Please remember that this is not a bear pit and that the above posts are not attacks that need to be defended against. Pick and choose whatever you'd like to raise or develop for further points.

Best, Ron

[jim pinto]

http://news.deviantart.com/article/21254/

Hello John Tynes,

It has been years since we spoke, buddy. Years. I agree 100% about GenCon. I had a blast, but I was doing a lot of working and networking myself. Whew.

And I think we're joining in on the Forge here at the same time.

Now. Before I overstep my bounds, I have a tendency to post a lot of ideas on forums very quickly, even before I've gotten my feet wet with everything that's been said.

So.

Let me apologize now if I jump the tracks or say something someone else has said.

Now.

I'm the sort of gamer, that no matter what I'm playing, I have a story going. When I'm playing Puerto Rico (a very rigid board game), I make jokes "in character" that involve ordering my "colonists" to toil in my sugar caves. I talk with the other "landowners" in character and I try to create a narrative based on what's going on. Sort of a geshtalt board-game RPG.

History of the World is perfect for this, as well. More abstract German games lack the themes necessary to do this all the time (Carcassone's theme is very thin), but Clue is a perfect example of talking with an accent while you play or stroking your chin while you interogate another player.

Would character cards have improved monopoly or candy land (which actually aren't games, but simulations)? Would I play them differently? Would you? It seems to me that the layering of character into our games IS happening. Dungeon Twister, Descent, Betrayal on the House on the Hill (horrible name), and Arkham Horror (the new one), all have characters with "goals" and narrative potential.

Does that mean people take advantage of it?

...

Going back to RPGs, forcing the narrative into any game is an impossibilty. Role-playing games try to encourage it, but even among the "narrative-police" of the Indie movement (that was not an insult), you still have people showing up to play "Dogs" (for instance) to just roll dice and kick butt. You can't change that with a disclaimer at the front of your book.

Gamers are going to do what they want to do. This is the first rule of publishing in this industry. A lesson, I'll bet, John Wick will agree with me on.

You can't force people to play 7th Sea the way YOU PLAY 7th Sea. You can't expect them to care about swinging from chandeliers when stabbing them produces the most immediate result.

TORG tried this too. It failed. It has cards even, come to think of it.

Your duty as a game designer is to provide the tools for fun... and if someone puts that tool in a light socket and gets shocked, so be it.

I'm probably in the minority on this, but my worst books were ones with Feats and Character Classes wedged into them. My best books were advice and toolboxes that helped people game better. They all sold equally well, but the fans seemed to always want to thank me for the L5R Survival Guide before they would ever say boo about d20 Mercenaries.

Not that any of books are any good, but you get the point.

I will forever consider myself lucky that I get to write games and hear about people using them in manner "as close to my vision as possible." And while I would love to see CCGs and Board Games take on the narrative role more seriously, Aspergers and detail-oriented math-hounds don't really see much use for gripping drama and character-driven narrative.

Everyone is just waiting for the moment when Blade kills vampires.

Again. Sorry for junping the tracks.

[Telarus, KSC]

Just going to jump in here with a quick reference. For an actual, published example of a RPG/CCG, you may want to check out DragonStorm, a CCG about role-playing shapeshifters persecuted by necromancers. Their Download page has some demos, and rules to check out. I remember winning a starter deck, and a booster pack in a Magic:TG tournament..ooh a WHILE back. Not really going to comment on the design/playability of DragonStorm, as I never actually played it, but there's your real-world example. It had cards for characters/backgrounds, what type of shapshifter you ended up (were-wolf, dragon, etc), equipment, story goals, and scene framing for encounters. Purely as conjecture, tho, I would say that the cost of art, and printing the cards (in 1996) probably didn't help them much.

Namaste,

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

This is a moderator post. Everyone shut up until John responds. Thanks.

Best, Ron

[John Tynes]

Hey folks,

Thanks for the many thoughtful posts and very specific suggestions. I'm a bit overwhelmed with links but will explore them soon and report back with comments so I can try to narrow down what I have in mind. (I'm recovering from another convention at present and the upcoming holiday weekend is on the jammed side.)

I really appreciate the response.

[MatrixGamer]

I think it would be valuable to step back and ask whether the most fundamental mechanic, of consensual reality by conversation, is really the best way to go.

I suspect, quite simply, that it is not.

John

Please add one more game to you list to read up on - Engle Matrix Games.

I marketed them this year at Gen Con as "Board Game RPGs"

The game consists of a color laminated map surrounded by a cast of characters and a "plot track" that suggest what actions need to happen for that type of story to be told.

Play goes around the table. Before each players turn people can move figures/counters around on the map to set up possible scenes. The acting player then makes up what they want to have happen next in the game. For instance "Bob finds a smoking gun under the bleachers." They pick a character to be their referee. They decide how well they like the "argument" which sets what the roll is. The player rolls and it either happens or doesn't. The story builds up bit by bit.

There are a few secondary rules - counter-arguments "No it happened like this..." conflict arguments "You started the fight but here is how it ended..." trouble arguments "I'm not dead because the bullet hit my pocket bible..." and a few others but essentially it is real simple.

Matrix Games are a controlled dialogue system that don't rely on consensus that have been around for nearly 20 years that work for murder mystery, spy intrigue, military campaigns, politics, romance stories, psychotherapy, creative writing education and more.

Please do check it out.

Chris Engle
Hamster Press = Engle Matrix Games

[komradebob]

John:
Having heard some of the suggestions now, what are you considering? There seemed to be few different things you wanted to talk about:

Taking Turns
Using Cards
Using a board
Accessibility

Those are all pretty interesting topics to me. Did you want to tackle them one at a time?

I'll throw one out there: Taking turns
One thig that has struck me about turn taking in non-rpgs, is that a turn needs to be relatively quick ( tying in to accessibilty, too, actually) or it needs to allow other players to interact with the turn in some fashion.
Relatively Good Turn design: Most trad boardgames. The acting player moves a few piecs an/or conducts a few actions then play moves on. Not too much interaction, but the hot potato passes. Inactive players have just enough time to prep for their turn but don't lose interest.

Relatively bad turn design: Many Igo-Yougo wargames, especially with vast amount of pieces per player. Often interaction between players is minimal and an active player can take a huge amount of time ( which I suppose alos acts against accessibility).

( All, IMO, natch!)

What implications does this then have for an rpg design that uses turns?

I dunno, but I think it's important.
Your thoughts?

[Ron Edwards]

That's probably enough for now. Let the man breathe. It is also possible that he wants to start a new thread, now that this one is so jam-packed.

I swear, whenever a known-name guy posts here, it's kind of obscene the way tons of people want to post in his thread, kind of like wanting to rub up against him. Understandable, I supposed, but something to self-monitor.

Best, Ron