Foundational elements and the illusion of setting...

[mikefernandez]

Theme is (oddly enough) the theme on this site. Its not that it confuses me that a site that "pioneered" rpg theory would generate an evolving doctrine of procedure, but I just find this subculture to not fit into my line of thinking.

Doctrines can be broken...

Theories need to be challenged...

...and maybe I'm just a punk, but this community feels too elite.


Aloha

[mikefernandez]

In opposition to the three rigid views on rpg game theory:

Gamist
Narrativist
Simulationist

I would like to propose a new theory on the foundational elements of gaming that focuses on

Expression
Creation and
Chaos

Now, you could look at this as an extension of the precious GNS theory, or a completely different model.

This is my Emergent Elements theory.

While game mechanics are important to a game, in the end it's what you get out of the game. The goal of gaming in the end is to have a good positive experience and this experience can be found in Expression, Creation, and Chaos.

Expression represents Art, presentation & performance
Creation represents Art, systems & devices
Chaos represents The self & interface

Now using these tools for design you have a basis for the Foundational elements of Design

Next time I will write on the Foundational Elements and the illusion of setting.

I encourage people, do post rather than lurk.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Mike,

As I outlined for you in private message, I look forward to seeing an example of actual play, from your real-life experience, that you can use as a touchpoint as you develop your ideas. With it, I can move this thread to the Actual Play forum, but without it, the thread can't continue.

Best, Ron

[aaronil]

Theme is (oddly enough) the theme on this site. Its not that it confuses me that a site that "pioneered" rpg theory would generate an evolving doctrine of procedure, but I just find this subculture to not fit into my line of thinking.

Doctrines can be broken...

Theories need to be challenged...

...and maybe I'm just a punk, but this community feels too elite.

Mike, I just began exploring the Forge, but so far I've received great advice in this forum and the HeroQuest forum in the form of challenging my old lines of thinking and theories. It seems to me that challenge is what this site is all about - the challenge to think differently and strengthen ideas. I haven't yet encountered the elitism which you've noticed, but I think it's cool you voice your bias upfront and still post despite that concern.

Expression represents Art, presentation & performance
Creation represents Art, systems & devices
Chaos represents The self & interface

These are fairly abstract for me to grok. Expression is being understood by other players through creative endeavor, right? How do you distinguish this from Creation? I'm really not getting Chaos, though I'm curious what you mean by "the self and interface."

[Ron Edwards]

Hey,

Aaron, the reason that we can't tell what it's about is that there's no example to work from. Mike needs to include that actual-play stuff or this thread can't continue.

So everyone, hold off on replying until that happens. Thanks.

Best, Ron

[mikefernandez]

There's no actual play to this post. You switched the wrong post to Actual play. The Origins thread should have gone here while his post belongs in a section for new theories or the closest thing to it First thoughts. This post is more of a statement to ignite a discussion.

If anything I'll continue posting the idea from the Origins thread and how it relates to the Foundational and Emergent Elements theory.

Expression is the product of creation and chaos

These emerging elements are products of the foundational elements

So for [Rise Up Planet Earth] the foundational elements represents the separate roles each player has as well as the game moderators role in playing the environment.

The Chaos element is the choices you make in regards to what do you do with the ship, and the other players on board. Form alliances? Take over? Freewill and Choices are part of this element. Som tools of chaos are miniatures and the game board, the character sheet and the game environment, dice and cards.
Creation element is the system the game relies on to make it work. Game mechanics, devices, and systems.
The Expression element is the return you get from the game. Narrative Progression. Character and Environment Development. In game rewards.

So Ideally the goal is to maximize these three elements in context to the theme. the setting is really just a mean to relate to others what the idea is about. In this game the theme is ultimate power.


As for my views on this community being elite. I'm a punk against authority and doctrines. This community doesnt give you much freedom over your work once you hit post. To me it's almost like writing in a communistic society. The rules prohibit you from doing much all for the sake of "progression". So a sacrifice of freedom for progression. yup communist.

Damn I'm an arrogant bastard. But what the hell. It's not like this post will get deleted. Making an ass of yourself is also a good way to spark things, or have some higher up trample your ass and call you an ignorant piece of crap.


So for "Actual Play" I'm thinking for the purposes of getting a game together to explore the theme sooner then later, it's best to fallback on archetypes.

I mentioned "The Activist" "The Rebel" "The Politician" and "The King" as possible archetypes as this could be an interesting game with conflict.

Each archetype has a background which provides ideas for what they could do with such power. For instance the King has many enemies, and was looking for a way to deal with them.

Now I'm not sure if this game could be based on the "real world" or an alien planet (I referred to the Planet as Urth in the original post).

But the game begins in the ship after the capture of the aliens with the introduction on what the ship is capable of and their current position on the ship and where the ship is in relation to the planet.

The ship is represented by a one page map that details the layout and functions of the ship while using counters/miniatures/imagination/whatevers to represent the players.

Now each turn the players may take actions to either take control of the ship, communicate with the other players, attempt to overpower the other players, or attempt to work with eachother to decide what to do with this newfound power.

Currently the way the game is set up, it is most definitely a game where power can be abused. and so this is where a system of rewards needs to be created.

I'm thinking that based on the characters background they score points by solving problems that they have using the ship or whatever means they have available.

This is all just ideas and concepts still and needs more work. But yes lets all

hold off on replying until that happens.

Or if anyone is at all interested in "ideas" maybe you could speak up instead of lurking in fear of retribution.

[Ron Edwards]

Well, you blew it.

This was indeed the thread that needs to go into Actual Play. There is no "ideas for ideas sake" forum here at the Forge. We had'em, they did their job, then they got stupid and had to go away.

You are now defying moderation and, effectively, spamming. It doesn't matter what sort of merits your ideas have; you are demonstrating yourself to be unable to interact socially at the site.

You are of course free to begin a new thread in Actual Play, using real-experience examples, just as I suggested, to illustrate your ideas. But this thread, here in this forum, is now closed. Basically, here's your chance to demonstrate whether you're an adult.

Best, Ron