Pitch and a Miss (why my non-gamer friends won't try it)

[joepub]

So, this isn't really an actual play thread.
This is an I-didn't-get-any-actual-play-because-I-can't-convince-my-friends-to-try-RPGs thread.

So, I'm not going to get into specific examples here too much, because I want more general advice here right now.

I have friends who play RPGs, and they are totally awesome to play with.
I played Shock last week with one of them, and the game totally kicked ass.

But I only have a few gamer friends, and many non-gamer friends.
And some of my non-gamer friends... I totally want to introduce them to gaming. For a lot of reasons.
First of all... I design games. I write games. I want to be able to talk to them about this stuff. It's a big part of who I am.
Second of all... I want to play games. Playing games kicks ass. Introducing people to gaming means fresh perspective and all that jazz.
Third of all... some of them would make amazing gamers.

I have:
-this friend who did a lot of freeform forum roleplaying. The kind where people basically write huge narrative posts.
-this friend who reads fantasy, plays computer-game RPGs, etc...
-a girlfriend who is a writer.

They would all be really, really awesome to play games with.
I even totally have a few games I know they'd totally dig.

But... Roleplaying is a totally stigmatized hobby.
So much so that peoples' eyes glaze over when I mention it.
And they avoid the question when I ask if they want to try a session of Shock: or something like that, some day soon.

Roleplaying is so stigmatized that when I pulled out Jungle Speed in front of two friends and asked if they wanted to play, and told them a bit about it ("It's a quick-reflexes card game, but really it's all about smacktalk"), they said, "I'm not really into those card - roleplay games."

Because I pulled Jungle Speed from the same drawer that Perfect and My Life with Master are located...
Jungle Speed has been plagued by association. When it isn't even an RPG.

Now...
I know how to pitch games to people.
I know how to talk to people.
I've pitched games at Gencon, other products in workplaces...
I've pitched crazy ideas to my friends, and gotten them to say, "Yeah, I'll give it a try."
I've helped make my friends comfortable with the fact that I'm bisexual.

Basically: I don't think it's that I lack persuasive/communication skill in general.
So... unless I'm horribly mistaken on that one... what is it?

THINGS I KNOW DON'T WORK (from personal experience, or seeing others fail at this.)
-Telling people about MY character or what I'VE done in previous games.
-Hard selling.
-Conning people into playing.
-"You can be anything".
-Having them tag along, against their will.

THINGS I HAVE YET TO REALLY TRY
-Instead of trying to bring games to them, bring them to games. "Hey, wanna join me and these two guys tomorrow afternoon and play this sweet RPG? We can teach you and stuff."
-Hand them a book, talk to them about it, leave the book if they are interested - if they read it offer to game with them. (would this be a good idea or a bad one? I dunno.)

QUESTIONS I HAVE

1.) Why is there such stigmatization around the hobby?

2.) How does one break down those barriers, and get people at least willing to HEAR what you have to say?

3.) How do you approach your friends with a "wanna join me and do this thing you've never done before" in general?

4.) Judd has the "good sentences" thing, right? What are some good sentences to use to suggest roleplaying to non-gamers?

5.) What are tactics (I mean that in the most positive way, not in the subversive way) to get your friends interested?

[Callan S.]

Lack of procedure to sell themselves on? Take the online game world of warcraft as and example of procedures I do know - I know alot stuff I can do in that game. That in itself doesn't get me excited. But knowing that stuff lets me mull it over in spare moments, while watching TV, doing the washing up, whatever. In time I find something(s) that excites me and I start to dwell on them - I'm selling myself on playing, rather than someone else doing that.

This probably doesn't seem apparent when suggesting a new card or board game to people. They'll often have some small amount of enthusiasm available without ever having played it before. But I'd suggest that all card games and board games often share certain similar procedures. Ones which people have learnt before and sold themselves on. Concrete evidence might be to ask them what procedures they know are in RPG's, and what procedures they know are in most board games/card games, while noting enthusiam levels from them as they describe each.

[Frank T]

How about: "We are going to play some RPG tonight, maybe you want to drop by for an hour or so and watch. You don't have to play yourself, but I'd be really glad if you'd just take a look, so you know what this stuff I'm always talking about really is."

- Frank

[Alan]

Hi Joe,

I find your post frustrating, because you seem to have jumped to the conclusion that your rpg was rejected because of stigmatization and now you want a bitch session about being stigmatized. I don't think that will head anywhere useful.

I'm more interested in what really happened. Would you be willing to say more about your original interaction?

What game were you pitching?
What did you say to your friends?
What was their Actual Response? What did they say?

[joepub]

Alan, you misunderstand me.
I am not just intending to bitch here.
I actually think the first half of your post is entirely unuseful and derailing.

The second half, though, is great - and I'd love to respond to it.
This isn't about any one time in particular, nor one tactic, nor one set of friends... But it was triggered by an occasion last night.

Stacie and Jacob (who are roommates) invited me over last night.
I grabbed Perfect (which I wrote), Shock: (which is awesome), and Jungle Speed (which isn't an RPG, but is awesome) and put them in a bag with dice and gatorade.
I'd mentioned Jungle Speed to them before, and had actually shown them Perfect before (which they'd flipped through, and commented on art and such).

Stacie was talking to someone on her computer, and Jacob was making nachoes. I said, "Guys, unless you had any plans we should totally play Jungle Speed."
Stacie ignored the suggestion, and Jacob walked over and said, "I don't really do those card - RPG things."

I said, "Jungle Speed isn't an RPG. It's a card game - a simple, board game-y card game - it's about reflexes, and grabbing the totem, and smack talking your friends."

Jacob was slightly interested, Stacie is DEFINITELY NOT.

"Yeah, I just brought it in case we wanted something to do. I also brought Shock: and Perfect - two really awesome RPGs."

Suddenly Jacob is back to making nachos.

Now... at that point I got a bit pouty (I was tired, what can I say) and started hard-selling them. And it totally shut down all possibility - I realize hard selling will not achieve my goals.

**********************************************

I'm not sure why the distaste, really.
Stacie has moderated a freeform text RP board for a long time...
She's done character narration and writing.

Sure, freeform and RPGs are totally different... but the fact that she's been so involved in that domain and totally doesn't want to try a little crossover into mechanically-enforced RPGs is weird.

[Alan]

Hi Joe,

Sorry, Joe, I only got down to reading the first of your questions ("Why is there such stigmatization around the hobby?") before responding. I myself should have collected more information before projecting an assumption.

Back to your experience pitching RPGs.

I don't think we yet know if their reasons had anything to do with stigmatization of RPGs. In fact, one player responded by lumping card games and rpgs together. One game you pitched wasn't even an RPG. I think you need to collect more information from them.

eg:

What 's turning you off about Shock/Perfect/Jungle Speed?

For me "reflexes, and grabbing the totem, and smack talking your friends" would be a big turnoff -- I'd expect to lose and get humiliated as I'm not great at smack talking. Likewise, what I've heard about Shock makes me thinks it's a "cool grimness" sort of game that might not appeal to all.

It's possible that your friends don't enthuse about the same kind of game fun you do. I think if you ask, you might find what does enthuse them, then choose an RPG that plays to that and pitch it.

[greyorm]

It's possible that your friends don't enthuse about the same kind of game fun you do. I think if you ask, you might find what does enthuse them, then choose an RPG that plays to that and pitch it.

Along the same lines Alan suggests above, there: have you tried, "Guys, listen, I really want to play some RPGs with you. You're my friends, and this is a big part of who I am and what I like to do. It would really make me happy if we could play and have fun. But I don't want to play a game you won't enjoy because of the subject matter, what kinds of stories are you interested in?"

BTW, there isn't a wasted word in that sentence there. And then, if they're unresponsive, pull out what you know about them, Stacie is a writer, correct? What kinds of stories does she write? Suggest something along those lines. And if they're still not interested, get a conversation going about it.

"Ok, I realize you guys aren't interested, but could you tell me why? This is a really big part of my life, and when you reject it, I feel a little rejected myself. I'd just like to know why you don't want to even try playing with me? It's important to me to understand."

And at least then you know, even if they aren't ever going to become your "gaming buds".

[joepub]

Alan, Greyorm... That's great.
Thank you.


Alan - In selecting those three games, I had attempted to figure out what'd be good for them.
Shock: is something that'd appeal to both of those particular friends.
Perfect is something that appeals to Stacie and that I have immediate attachment to.

Jungle Speed is a non-RPG... it's the only board game-y thing I have with me.
They are competitive, to a degree, so I figure'd I might try pitching that one.

But... you're totally right, and thank you for suggesting a more involving approach to "pitching".

Greyorm - Those are wonderful sentences.

[Storn]

I want to emphasis what a couple of other's have said.  That is find their "hooks".

Stacie writes.  Jacob reads fantasy. 

Instead of telling or selling, ask.

Ask questions.  Leading questions to be sure.  Like a lawyer.

"Hey Stacie, whatchya writing in your freeform?"  she answers... perhaps follow up with: "hmmm... what would you think of instant face to face feedback on where the story is going?"

"Hey Jacob, whatchya reading?"  He answers... follow with another question; "How cool would it be to be able to a hero in a fantasy world?  To wield magic?  To find the magic sword?  To rescue Princess and Country?  Tread the world under your sandled feet?"

Don't sell the systems.  Sell the stories!!!  These two folks are really into story by what they do. 

[Blankshield]

A couple other things to consider:

One is to take a step sideways and try to look at yourself.  How important is it for you to play RPG's with these people?  More important than spending time together?  Note: I'm not talking about how fun you think it would be - I'm talking about how important it is for you, in terms of your self-esteem, and all that jazz.

For example, I never bring one of my own games out 'casually' - I know I'm way too deeply invested in them to not take "Enh, not tonight" personally.  If I want people to play an RPG, even gamers I already know, I will usually send out a note to maybe twice as many people as the game will fit, at least a couple weeks ahead.  I'll freely admit that has more to do with my general group of gamers being in the "we have jobs and kids and lives" scheduling nightmare phase of their lives than with wanting to provide warning, but the advance notice is, I think, important.

Another thing to consider is the environment you start selling to.  In this example, you've got one person chatting online, another doing food in the kitchen.  Dude, body language there is totally about "We're not ready to do stuff together yet."  So, hang in the kitchen and chat.  Offer to help.  When the nachos are done, and the smell pulls everyone to the table to chow down, then you say "What do you guys want to do tonight?"  In general, you're going to have shit success at pitching anything if the people aren't in the same space and in an environment where they're willing to listen.  Food is great - huge parts of our culture are built around sharing food and talking.

For a direct suggestion to getting RPG's into the consideration space for people who don't game:  If I were bringing an RPG out to people who aren't expecting it, I would bring something like: a quick easy 1-night RPG, a board game/party game, a DVD, a deck of standard playing cards.  Don't say a word about any of them... let their interest direct what gets picked up.  Answer questions (duh), like if they pick up the RPG and say "What's this?" say "It's a game I brought out that is about [common interest X] and I really thought you'd like it."  Be willing to enjoy any of the things you brought out, as well as fairly consider anything anyone else brings.  Odds are the RPG won't get picked out of the gate.  It may not even get looked at.  That's OK.  Sooner or later someone will get curious and look at it.  Eventually a night will happen where someone says "I've seen that movie, and I'm sick of cards.  What's this Shock: thing?"

hope that helps,

James

[joepub]

Stellar, James.

You give some really solid advice and input.
That's what I was trying to do with bringing Jungle Speed - offer more than just an RPG selection.

I think the overall issue for THAT PARTICULAR INCIDENT might have been that they weren't interested in doing anything at all that eveing.
Which makes me wonder why they insisted I come over, if they were just going to sit on different computers chatting. But that's another issue.

I think that if I'm going to turn this thread into anything useful in the future, it is:

-Don't try and sell them on what I like.
-Don't feel the need to roleplay with people just because they are my friends. (Not that I did, but thanks for driving that point home James.)
-Don't try to pitch an idea to people who aren't in the right frame of mind - while they are cooking or chatting, for example.
-Timing is important, as in everything.
-Give them selection. Be happy to play a card game, or watch a DVD, or just sit around and each nachoes instead. Don't feel limited in what you want to do.
-Give ample notice to people - don't try and rope them in on the spot, when that might cause discomfort.

[Lamorak33]

I think the overall issue for THAT PARTICULAR INCIDENT might have been that they weren't interested in doing anything at all that eveing.
Which makes me wonder why they insisted I come over, if they were just going to sit on different computers chatting.

Because they obviously like you dude! duh! :-)

There is some great advice here, but I James really struck a chord with me, me being in that wife-kids-career zone!

But yeah, finding out what RPG they would probably enjoy playing (by a hard look at their interests, ie by what they read or write, as suggested) and offering games along that line would seem the best idea. My guess is that when you have got them playing one RPG then getting them to at leats try some of your other games is going to be easy.

Regards
Rob

[Doyce]

I'm not sure why the distaste, really.
Stacie has moderated a freeform text RP board for a long time...
She's done character narration and writing.

In my experience, people who came to Roleplay from systemless RP forums are often the MOST RESISTANT to RPGs.  At it's best, RP forums are a great shared story-writing forum -- at it's worse, it's my-guy god-mode wankery. In either case, you get a lot of resistance becuase of the perception that the rules will screw with whatever story-thing that person likes doing.

That's all IMO, and no offense intended to folks who jones and get a lot of enjoyment out of such things -- I certainly know people who do both and enjoy both, but I also know that the idea of 'rules blocking my creativity' shuts folks down in that way.

Suggestion: quit calling in an RPG -- call it a story-telling game and, better, START with a story-telling game. I've seen Baron Munchausen run to GREAT effect with a mixed group of gamers and non-gamers (mostly non-games, and in some cases non-gamers who'd really come down hard on the 'i'm not interested' side of thing)  -- in the situation I'm thinking of, there were a LOT of party games laid out for the party in question, BM was one of em, as was Jungle Speed, and they were just worked into the rotation along with the rest of the party games and everyone had a blast. 

The guy who was keeping the game s flowing never once mentioned the word roleplaying at all -- it was just "This is the game, and this is what you do, and that's it," and a few people looked nervous in a stage-frighty way, but everyone jumped in and had a ball and honestly? The non-rpers kicked ass and I think came up with some of the best stuff.

Anyway, that was drifting off topic a bit -- i hope some of this helps.

[Doyce]

And to add on, my thoughts tie directly into James' suggestion below:

Don't say a word about any of them... let their interest direct what gets picked up.  Answer questions (duh), like if they pick up the RPG and say "What's this?" say "It's a game I brought out that is about [common interest X] and I really thought you'd like it." 

That's exactly what happened with the Munchausen game -- it was just one thing to do on the pile of things to do.  If no one had been into it, it would have gone back into the bookshelf for the next time... and eventually...

eventually...

Yeah, what James said.

[Mike Sugarbaker]

Here's an idea related to the above: ask them questions about the stuff they're into that is sort of like gaming.

People have a natural tendency to shy away when they perceive that you're pushing something on them. So pull on them instead. Especially the freeform online RPer - interrogate her. Me, I naturally do this because I find what they do, and the fact that it works at all, enlessly mystifying and fascinating. How do they resolve conflicts between characters? Between players? Whatever methods they themselves use, have they seen or heard of any others? When do they work? When do they not?

This can be a very effective stealth technique for telling them what gaming really is, as opposed to what they think it is. Compare and contrast it relentlessly, but always be really talking about what they're into.

This technique has yet to result in any actual play for me, I have to confess. But I've learned a lot.