Pushing a game outside the RPG scene.

[joepub]

So, I randomly decided earlier today to start at the VERY beginning of the Publishing forum.
Just start scanning through the pages, and reading any threads that jumped out at me.

And one did, specifically because I've been contemplating a lot of very similar stuff lately.

This is taken from a very, very old thread.

Quote from: quozl
While these are all great idea, I think they have strayed away from the exercise.  I think I may be at fault since I made it too vague and wide-open.  In order to rectify that, here's the exercise again, a lot more specific:

A non-roleplayer who has been introduced to roleplaying but never played goes into a store like Wal-Mart.  In the game section, next to Uno and Monopoly, is a box.  This box contains the game Dust Devils and has the same great cover art we've already seen.  The customer turns over the box to read the text which describes the game and contents of the box.
What would that text need to say for this non-roleplayer (who likes Clint Eastwood westerns) to buy Dust Devils?

Okay I think the term 'rpg' need not even be mentioned ,In fact I think we should start them role playing  before they even open the package... the copy should be something like this (and remember this is almost off the top of my head)

***Start package copy
 
   Do you Shoot or Give up the Gun?

You push aside the swinging door and walk into the smokey saloon, the hardcases give you the eye as you walk up to the bar. The bartender grunts and says:
     'Howdy pardner, you're new in these parts, but thats no surpise, seems people come and go a lot around here, sometimes on their feet and sometimes feet first.  I'm not gonna ask who you are, I can see it in your eyes you're on the trail looking for somebody to plug with those six shooters you have strapped on, no I'm no fortune teller I don't know what put you on the trail and it really doesn't matter.  Everybody who walks down this road is changed by it ,whether or not they finish what they set out to do, most of the time they have to plug a few on the way.
  But I can see it in your eyes, you don't know whether its worth it, living a life by the gun.  Well I sure don't know either, depends on you, but every time you strap those on you have to think 'is it worth it'? Can I go on and keep on killing? Am I ever gonna find what I set out for, and once I get it can I put away these shooting irons?"

   Well I don't know the answer either, but you see the guy you are lookin for is right across the bar and he has the same look in his eye.....so the question is boys 'DO YOU SHOOT OR GIVE UP THE GUN'?.

  Dust Devils is the game of Western characters, you play Bounty Hunters, Sheriffs,  and Desperados in the Old West fightin' and shootin' your way across the dusty trails, but alway the question rides with you, Is the price you pay worth what you seek?  DO YOU SHOOT OR GIVE UP THE GUN?

  Dust Devils requires a referee and at least one player up to as many as can crowd around your table, the game REQUIRES AN ORDINARY SET OF PLAYING CARD AND POKER CHIPS, COINS OR OTHER TOKENS 

     Included: Dust Devil rule Book 25 pp, Character sheets
****End Package copy

  Okay obviously my prose is going to take massaging but I think using the term 'rpg' not only drags with it too much negative equity but for many people is completley uninformative.  If the essence of good writing is 'show not tell' then using the term 'rpg' really isn't either telling OR showing.

  I also very strongly believe that a game marketed like this should definitely include premade characters, some kind of introductory scenario and some kind of guide to scenario creations (but for God's sake don't call it THAT!) and MAYBE a campaign setting ( yes I know the setting is the Old West but I was thinking something like Dodge City only much smaller, just some little tank town with a saloon and a rail siding and all the other basic Western backlot sets.)

So, there are two major questions here:
"How do I create a game people outside the rpg scene will want to play?"
"How do I market such a game to these people outside the rpg scene?"

I want to focus more on the second one here.

I think that there are some things about the physical artifact of RPGs that make it hard to market outside the RPG scene:
-It's a textbook. Textbooks are associated with boringness, not awesomeness.
-It's a book. Do you sit around and read books with your friends? No. Reading is a hobby carried out in isolation (predominantly.)
-The game almost always requires stuff (dice, etc) that isn't provided with the game.

What are some solutions to these problems?

I can think of one good one:

-Have a game box. Like a boardgame box, with the rules, dice, pencils, character sheets and everything in it.

Consider the regular d&d 3.5. Now, envision: A box. inside it is dice, pencils, character sheets, a rules booklet outlining how the game works. A mini-booklet for each class and race (spell lists for each class are contained in their mini booklets). A fold-out map of Greyhawk, and another foldout map of a second potential setting. Both setting maps correspond to a Setting Booklet.
Think about how this makes character creation a group activity, moreso than

How about others?

I think using the term 'rpg' not only drags with it too much negative equity but for many people is completley uninformative.

I wanted to pull this out and talk about it as well.
Does "roleplaying game" or "story game" or "adventure game" help marketing to the un-initiated masses at all?
Does RPG do more harm than help, in this regard?

And furthermore... do I want to pull in all the connotations about how the game plays, by calling it an RPG?
Won't that just set up disappointment in some people, who expect a lot of adventuring and d20's and character advancement? (If, say, the game in question doesn't have that.)

And... while I'm at it, the term "game".
I had a large talk the other day with my Aunt (a Masters in something like Communication and Dialogue, who's done a lot of work with ancient storytelling customs).
She's never played an RPG. She pointed out why Murder Mystery events seem like games, whereas to her RPGs do not:
-Murder Mysteries have a set end point, and a tangible result. A win condition. Many RPGs do not.
-There is a winner.
-In RPG's, you straddle the idea that you're playing a game, and the idea that you're authoring a story. It's uncertain which is the ultimate goal.

Are we creating games?
Is that the most accurate description we have?

For some reason... I think there is a better term.

Is there a better word than game for: "Collective Storytelling Exercise, with Chance and Mechanics to Determine Certain Things Within the Story"?

I've touched on Presentation and Terminology, in terms of reaching a greater, non-RPGer audience.
feedback?

[Eero Tuovinen]

So, there are two major questions here:
"How do I create a game people outside the rpg scene will want to play?"
"How do I market such a game to these people outside the rpg scene?"

Some folks, me included, have gone to great effort lately in trying to figure this out. My own game Eleanor's Dream, coming out next spring, is an effort to answer both of those questions in as much depth as I can currently manage. I'll sketch some of my own answers next.

I think that there are some things about the physical artifact of RPGs that make it hard to market outside the RPG scene:
-It's a textbook. Textbooks are associated with boringness, not awesomeness.
-It's a book. Do you sit around and read books with your friends? No. Reading is a hobby carried out in isolation (predominantly.)
-The game almost always requires stuff (dice, etc) that isn't provided with the game.

What are some solutions to these problems?

My game is modeled on a children's activity/coloring book, dodging the bookly associations. The book is used as an active play tool, you read and write and draw in it during play. The game is marketed at children and their parents, so it utilizes pre-existing shopping instincts. While the game does indeed use dice, it's just one or two d6, which is what you'd expect of a board game published in a magazine, say.

I wanted to pull this out and talk about it as well.
Does "roleplaying game" or "story game" or "adventure game" help marketing to the un-initiated masses at all?
Does RPG do more harm than help, in this regard?

Well, the Finnish market and language is different, but I'm pretty set on calling my game "adventure play" ('play' as in children's play, it's separate from 'dramatic play' in Finnish), or perhaps 'storytelling play' or 'imagination play'. This makes total analytical sense in this case, because the game doesn't have player characters, so there's even less "role"-playing than usual. Stupid to call it roleplaying if playing a role is not the focal activity. If the game was focused on the storytelling aspect the way many nar games have lately been, I'd probably call it "story play" or "storytelling play", but after thinking about it, I came to the conclusion that "adventure" is a more honest and alluring description of what's going on in the game. Less of a focus on coherent story and more effort on creating colorful situations. "Imagination play" is also pretty exact, and captures the point that it's something you do with your imagination instead of by running around, which is the usual modus operandi of children's play.

And furthermore... do I want to pull in all the connotations about how the game plays, by calling it an RPG?
Won't that just set up disappointment in some people, who expect a lot of adventuring and d20's and character advancement? (If, say, the game in question doesn't have that.)

Well, I think you should decide who you're marketing to. If you're speaking to people who are not roleplayers, then you probably shouldn't care whether roleplayers approve. Furthermore, I don't think there is any great concensus within the roleplaying hobby about what a roleplaying game is; even your most hardcore d20 fans will vehemently disagree with each other on various issues starting with ROLLplayers versus ROLEplayers and continuing through such various issues as GM fiat and canon gaming materials. In a marketplace where both Amber Diceless and D&D can be called roleplaying I have trouble imagining how you'd manage to disappoint anybody with your game.

Are we creating games?
Is that the most accurate description we have?

Well, as said, I've been calling my game a "play" (doesn't work in English so well, as the nominal form automatically means a dramatic re-enactment; the Finnish word "leikki" is the nominal word for children's entertainment activity of play). I like that term, because it captures the idea of structured-activity-entertainment-without-winning. There's plenty of imagination based play, too, so a roleplaying game isn't that weird in that context.

Thinking English (I'm planning to publish my game in English, too)... I'd probably still go with "play" myself, or perhaps "story imagination" or something like that. If my game was more similar to Spione, I'd consider "Story Now" for synergical branding, but as it stands, it's a bit different activity. Perhaps "adventure play" would be what I'd use, even in English, despite the slight confusion of using "play" in that manner.

But after thinking about this quite a lot, my opinion is that this really depends quite a bit on the exact product in question! For instance, I don't think that all narrativistic roleplaying games are "story play". I'm not quite sure where the natural division lines go, but something like Burning Empires feels more like a "game" still. Perhaps it's just historical bias, I don't know.

Well, however that shakes up in the next couple of years, I don't personally think that the nominal term is a deal-breaker in reinventing roleplaying. You can call it roleplaying, I think, and still achieve mainstream recognition, as long as all the actual components and marketing are on the spot. Call it "new kind of roleplaying", and people'll be smart enough to take it as it's own thing. So in that regard I wouldn't recommend worrying about it too much.

[TonyLB]

I'm with Eero:  The term doesn't really matter.  It's just there for people to gloss over it.  Worrying about it a lot seems (to my mind) like saying "We're saying that our chips are fantastalicious ... but is that really the right term?  Would tastetastic more accurately get across our message to the consumer?"

The whole question of the artifact itself is going to trump what you call it.  The box is cool.  A game that was actually structured, rules-wise, to fit more with people's social expectations of a board game (limited time commitment, hands-on interaction with all the game props, etc.) would be cooler still, IMO.

[joepub]

Okay, Tony.
I personally disagree because its a factor of marketing. It's "what term makes sense to people without pre-existing RPG knowledge"?
I'm not looking for a new term, I'm looking for a way to convey what the heck we are doing.
But, let's focus on the first question - which I agree is more important.
Aside from a box presentation, what else would help reach real people?

Eero, that "adventure play" or "imagation play".... is great.
Maybe I market Boulevard as "Make believe and Collective Storytelling" when it's finished, if it gets finished.
Because people know what make believe is.
"This is a make believe and collective storytelling activity."

[joepub]

HUZZAH!

For the past few days, I've had my MSN name set as:
Joe McDonald. (I need someone to talk with me about game marketing and terminology. Someone who doesn't play RPGs.)

And I waited for people to say, "What's an RPG?"
And then I dove into roughly this:

Okay. I am a game designer/player.
Specifically, the type of game I play is one where people collectively author a story.
They narrate on the behalf of fictional characters, sometimes rolling dice or enacting chance to see how certain things turn out.
It's a game, but it's not about winning (most of the time).
...*and so on and so forth*

Then I ask the person for a quick, one-line summary of what I am doing.
The best one I got was: "An activity involving make believe, storytelling, and roleplaying".

And I also asked some people, "How would I market this to you?"
The best answer was from my friend Naomi. She said she'd get back to me, and then... based on our 10-15 minute conversation earlier... emailed me this:

Perfect ©2006 [RPG]: A Role Playing Game, (a game of make believe and storytelling, where players collectively author a tale,) set in an imaginary time and place, loosely based on ... is a creative exploration with characters from this small town.

Play as [insert character name here,] whose [trait] and [trait] make him the most [description] person in the town. Sitting across from him is [insert name here,] whose etc. etc. (Probably about 4/5 of them, w/pictures.)

In-depth descriptions of the inhabitants of this town and the scenarios they find themselves in are included in this box, along with everything you need to play the game, including the rules booklet that enables the Game Leader to guide you as you collectively build a narrative using your characters' voices and abilities to construct your story. (perhaps have a pictured example of the description card-dealies?)

Use your characters' Freedoms, Aspects and Trusts, and the luck of the dice to surmount challenges and solve conflicts  and let your imagination take the reins as you work together on your own adaptation of the histories of Perfect ©2006.

So. Not all of that, above, matches exactly with how Perfect plays.
There is the assumption that the PCs and NPCs come scripted.
There is the assumption that there are "description cards".

These are simply things I didn't get around to explaining, in our brief conversation.

But... that's the text that would go on the back of the box, should Perfect have come in a box form.
It was written by someone who's never played or witnessed an RPG session, and who only heard about RPGs for 10-15 minutes. (no influence of "the way it's been done before" there at all.)

Just thought I'd... y'know, share that with you.
I'm not sure if there's a real POINT to this, but I find it really cool...
This is an outsider telling an insider how to market his game to other outsiders. (Cool!)

[b_bankhead]

Hi guy I'm the person who wrote most of the material you quoted. For me the question of marketing outside the gaming scene is the ONLY question about rpg marketing that really interests me.
Put simply I think that's the future of the Indie rpg movement, I don't think there is much room in the traditional field for the kind of expansion for all those games we are making.
But the Forge doesn't seem particularly interested in the question, witness the time and expense spent marketing to  trad-game events like GenCon vs. non gamer marketing.
So I hope this becomes to big a area of concern on the forge that it actually gets it's own forum!

[daMoose_Neo]

Also consider how the Forge views other games though, B. Your average consumer sees/says "DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS! It is IT! The ONLY game for me!", or insert appropriate first love for the appropriate customer. The Forge crew as a whole, however, *wants* to play *all* (or almost all) of the games coming out of here, because everyone knows how much blood, sweat and tears went into the production of it, and knows that each game typically has at least one little gem, if not a treasure trove, of mechanical wonderment.
As far as sales, titles coming out of the forums here do garner a certain amount of respect and interest by virtue of their being crafted here. Posters see the game develop and want to get in on the fun, non-posters or non-visitors have seen a number of titles from Forge related authors kick much ass and want to check things out for themselves and maybe this odd little game they saw on the racks at GenCon has that ass kicking potential.

Where I's going is this: We're not trying to sell ice to eskimos, which is why even using the "traditional" venues works very well, on top of the non-traditional. Traditional gamers who know of the Forge know the games are high-quality, thought provoking, and even better, they're one time purchases at reasonable prices. I'd say that, to a point, the Forge is to the RPG industry what German board games are to the board game industry. They certainly aren't mainstream, they share characteristics with the parent genre, but don't require much knowledge of the parent genre because the title itself turns the genre on its head.

[komradebob]

So, there are two major questions here:
"How do I create a game people outside the rpg scene will want to play?"
"How do I market such a game to these people outside the rpg scene?"

I want to focus more on the second one here.

I think that there are some things about the physical artifact of RPGs that make it hard to market outside the RPG scene:
-It's a textbook. Textbooks are associated with boringness, not awesomeness.
-It's a book. Do you sit around and read books with your friends? No. Reading is a hobby carried out in isolation (predominantly.)
-The game almost always requires stuff (dice, etc) that isn't provided with the game.

What are some solutions to these problems?

I can think of one good one:

-Have a game box. Like a boardgame box, with the rules, dice, pencils, character sheets and everything in it.

That is certainly one approach, and probably not a bad one, especially if marketing to non-hobbyists. The big question seems to be how much doing that adds to the per unit costs to make. I've found a couple of sites that sell bulk "stuff" for boardgames, so if you can utilize that, it can help keep costs down.

In general, I'd think you'd want to have everything you'd need to play the game come with the game. Hobbyist markets are a bit different in this regard, since we're used to buying dice and other stuff seperately.

I think using the term 'rpg' not only drags with it too much negative equity but for many people is completley uninformative.

I wanted to pull this out and talk about it as well.
Does "roleplaying game" or "story game" or "adventure game" help marketing to the un-initiated masses at all?
Does RPG do more harm than help, in this regard?

And furthermore... do I want to pull in all the connotations about how the game plays, by calling it an RPG?
Won't that just set up disappointment in some people, who expect a lot of adventuring and d20's and character advancement? (If, say, the game in question doesn't have that.)

And... while I'm at it, the term "game".
I had a large talk the other day with my Aunt (a Masters in something like Communication and Dialogue, who's done a lot of work with ancient storytelling customs).
She's never played an RPG. She pointed out why Murder Mystery events seem like games, whereas to her RPGs do not:
-Murder Mysteries have a set end point, and a tangible result. A win condition. Many RPGs do not.
-There is a winner.
-In RPG's, you straddle the idea that you're playing a game, and the idea that you're authoring a story. It's uncertain which is the ultimate goal.

Are we creating games?
Is that the most accurate description we have?

For some reason... I think there is a better term.

Is there a better word than game for: "Collective Storytelling Exercise, with Chance and Mechanics to Determine Certain Things Within the Story"?

I've touched on Presentation and Terminology, in terms of reaching a greater, non-RPGer audience.
feedback?

I've puzzled over this one for a while. The combination stuff is just clunky. Is it possible to get away with just calling your game by its name?
As a side note, when I was actively working on my kids' game, I had someone volunteering help. His wife was checking the writing out, too., which helped a lot. Short story: Basically, if she ( who gamed casually) started coming across text that was in gamer-speak, she'd note it and Arpie would toss me a note back to be aware of it. Having a non-hobbysist check the text can't hurt if part of the effort is to de-jargonize.

My game is modeled on a children's activity/coloring book, dodging the bookly associations. The book is used as an active play tool, you read and write and draw in it during play. The game is marketed at children and their parents, so it utilizes pre-existing shopping instincts. While the game does indeed use dice, it's just one or two d6, which is what you'd expect of a board game published in a magazine, say.

That's an awfully cool idea. If it doesn't cause too much thread-drift, can you talk a little more about the idea? Were you considering the physical product to look a bit like the stuff Dover Books puts out?

I've been thinking about a similar market, but rather than go into it with a book like Eero was suggesting, I've been thinking more in terms of the kids' crafts type books I've seen. Usually, the book is read and referred to, but not so much when engaging in the activity as prior to the activity or planning it out.

A related question:
Can anyone add insight on non-gamer markets and how to get product into them? Bookstores, toy shops, stuff like that? I'm sure there are associations for that sort of thing, but I'm completely clueless about them.

[Eero Tuovinen]

My game is modeled on a children's activity/coloring book, dodging the bookly associations. The book is used as an active play tool, you read and write and draw in it during play. The game is marketed at children and their parents, so it utilizes pre-existing shopping instincts. While the game does indeed use dice, it's just one or two d6, which is what you'd expect of a board game published in a magazine, say.

That's an awfully cool idea. If it doesn't cause too much thread-drift, can you talk a little more about the idea? Were you considering the physical product to look a bit like the stuff Dover Books puts out?

Had to Google Dover Books... At first I didn't catch the connection, but check this out; it's pretty close to what I'm thinking: size A4, inexpensive paper, all illustrations colorable. The kind of book you wouldn't mind "ruining" in play. That particular "Trolls, Elves and Fairies" coloring book has a rather enchanting style for my purposes, too. Have to keep it in mind. Perhaps even too elegant, I don't know if I'd want to color nice illustrations like that.

Anyway, I don't know if there's that much more to say about my project concerning this topic. I'm planning to sell it as a fun, developmental and artistic activity suitable for children, youngsters and whole families. There's a lot I could say about the system and such, but that's better suited for the Endeavor forum or something. We'll see if this whole thing works.

A related question:
Can anyone add insight on non-gamer markets and how to get product into them? Bookstores, toy shops, stuff like that? I'm sure there are associations for that sort of thing, but I'm completely clueless about them.

I could say a thing or two about the Finnish system, but from what I've heard that has little relation to how it works in US. We've been selling our latest rpg translations to bookstores (my brother tells me we just sold 20 Mountain Witches today to bookstores) for a couple of months now, it hasn't been particularly problematic. I imagine that in US you'd have to work directly with the large bookstore chains or something... perhaps somebody with actual knowledge could tell us? I'm interested myself, if I get my game happily published I'd certainly want to try my luck in the US as well.

[guildofblades]

I too have spent the majority of my time as a game publisher trying to figure out how to market my games (all of them) to audiences outside what is generally considered the "core" of the hobby gaming market. Thats to reach those persons out there that maybe have played like games a bit, such as "risk, axis & allies, stratego, etc", or in the case of RPGs, to find those persons predisposed to like story telling type games (either through an interest in fiction or perhaps they have already played computer or online RPGs).

We've achieved a fair level of success in marketing our boardgames to new audiences. In principle we focuss on two things. We focuss on marketing on the topic the game is based around. We're trying to play on a customers interest in that topic or theme to get their attention. Then we general present the "hooks" that might attract them to play the game itself. Weather its merely trying to peak curiosity and offering a game thats inexpensive and quick playing, or weather its highlighting any game play features or mechanics that we feel would be a draw to the target audience.

I do believe that when offering product to the broader masses you have to consider two things. First, you have to generate some kind of product comparison that will give a customer a rough idea of what the product is. Hence why we do tend to call all of our historical games a "boardgame" even though strictly speaking, by industry terms they are really more like simple wargames. But the general public has no perception of what a "wargame" is. Then, to present the idea that our products are rather different than what their normal idea of what a boardgame is (such as Monopoly, Clue or whatever) in the subtitle or product description we always highlight that the game is a "strategy" game.

To bring the subject back to role playing games. Yes, I do believe that marketing a game as a role playing game or RPG actually hurts your ability to sell it outside the existing RPG consumer base. I believe this for a couple of reasons. First, there are generally three perceptions of what an RPG is among persons who are not yet actually familiar with what RPGs /really/ are. There is the oldest, misunderstood one that sprung up in the early 80's and persists to this day is that role playing is somehow evil or somehow associated with the accult and devil worship. I would avoid the term RPG when trying to market to the masses even if I thought it would not matter to my target consumers, but rather because it surely might limit my distribution opportunities since not all the business persons that will be involved in deciding to allow those opportunities are themselves my target market. The second is the later perception that RPGs were that game only played by geeks, nerds and total social outcasts, which would limit some people's willingness to even try the game. And third, the newest one, and which I now believe is the far most commonly percieved idea of what an RPG is, is as online computer games. Thats not a perception that helps accurately portray the social aspects of real role playing games.

As such, we''ve put a trademark claim on the term "Epic Adventure Game", which is what we'll be presenting our Worlds of Heroes & Tyrants RPG game as to the masses once we're ready to take our free distribution plan to the next stage.

Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com
http://www.1483online.com