[Sorcerer] confused by example

[ShaneJackson]

I'm trying to learn the game, but some errata is confusing me, specifically the correction to page 92 where it says:

Page 92: A rolls 10 10 8 7 7 5; B rolls 10 5 5 5. A wins with four victories, not one.
http://www.sorcerer-rpg.com/brochure.php/errata.html

Don't the first 10s in each set can cancel out leaving A with 3 victories?

[jrs]

The first 10s do cancel out.  That still leaves player A with 10 8 7 7 which are all higher than player B's 5s.

Julie

[Ron Edwards]

Hello!

Julie's right, but I'll break down the example just a little bit more.

When I say "the 10s cancel out," I don't mean every single 10 on the table. I mean only the single highest 10 on A's side, and the single highest 10 on B's side. We can take them and take them away.

All the rest of the dice are still sitting there. They look like:

Player A: 10 8 7 7 5

Player B: 5 5 5

Looking at these dice alone, player A has four dice higher than any of B's dice. That's the end - no more analysis, no more consideration of ties (ties for lower dice are meaningless in Sorcerer), and so A wins with four victories.

Better? Making sense? All further questions are welcome.

Best, Ron

[ShaneJackson]

So if C rolls 10 1 1 1  and D rolls 9 2, C wins with 3?  Is that right?

[gorckat]

So if C rolls 10 1 1 1  and D rolls 9 2, C wins with 3?  Is that right?

C wins with 1- his 10 beats D's 9. None of C's other dice are greater than D's 9.

[James_Nostack]

Here's one way to do this.  It might help for people who prefer to learn things visually or tactile-ly.  Ironically, while it would make sense visually, I gotta explain it in words.

You know that character sheet in the Sorcerer rule book?  You know how it has numbers along the side?  When you roll your dice, place your dice next to the corresponding number.  The GM should do the same, right across the column from yours. 

The general rule is that everything that's higher than your opponent's side, counts as a Success.  Like, if the GM tops out at 7, and you've got 10, 9, 9 -- you get three Successes.

If, however, there's a tie at the top of the list--and only if it's at the top--remove one of the tied dice from each side, and repeat until one side has un-matched dice.  Then apply the general rule.  Ties lower down the list won't matter.  So if you roll 10, 9, 8, 5, 3 and the GM rolls 10, 9, 5, 3: you'd remove a 10 from each side.  Then you'd remove a 9 from each side, because there's still a tie.  The 5 and the 3 would tie, but we never get to them because the 8 is unmatched and higher than the 5. 

[Ron Edwards]

Brian and James are right.

Shane - any better? Try it a few times with the high dice not tied, and see how that goes first.

Everyone else, let Shane do these alone. It may feel funny, but go ahead and lay out the actual dice if you have them.

A: 10, 6, 6, 4
B: 6, 5, 4, 3

C: 9, 9, 1, 1
D: 8, 8, 2, 2

E: 4, 3, 2, 1
F: 7, 6, 5, 5

What do you get for each?

Best, Ron

[ShaneJackson]

I felt stupid after I got to work, because it finally clicked.  Apparently I thought I was playing RISK, so I was comparing each set of dice.

A: 10, 6, 6, 4
B: 6, 5, 4, 3

A wins with 3

C: 9, 9, 1, 1
D: 8, 8, 2, 2

C wins with 2

E: 4, 3, 2, 1
F: 7, 6, 5, 5

F wins with 4.  Total victory!

The rules mention "total failure" at one point in conjunction with using hits of drugs to contact demons, but I can't find the definition for it..  Is "total failure" what happens to the loser when his opponent has "total victory" as in that third set above?  In other words you couldn't have a "total failure" without the opponent having a "total victory", right?

I'm not this obtuse in real life.

--Shane

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Shane,

One small error in your assessments: in the first example, A wins with a single victory. The 10 is higher than B's 6, and no other dice of A's are higher than 6.

I think that one tripped you up because you were trying to account for the tied 6's. Those aren't ties; only the highest value can be tied in Sorcerer dice.

A harder example:

G: 9, 9, 6, 6, 4
H: 9, 9, 6, 6, 5

H wins with one victory. In this case, the top 9's are eliminated only to discover two more tied 9s; then eliminating them yields tied 6's, and eliminating those yields yet another pair of tied 6's. But finally, having eliminated all high ties (as we went), we're left with H's 5 beating G's 4.

However, none of that examination of ties would matter one little bit if they weren't the high values. Contrast with this:

I: 9, 8, 5, 5, 2
J: 8, 5, 5, 2, 1

This is easy - I's 9 beats J's 8, and as that is the only die of I's that is higher than any of J's, it's for a single victory. Absolutely no other dice need to be looked at or compared in any way.

Better?

Also, yes, the "total failure" phrase is merely a verbal corollary of total victory. Not supposed to be a big deal. If you want to know more about Total Victory, I'll hunt down a thread or two about it.

Best, Ron

[ShaneJackson]

That's okay.  I think I have it now.  For some reason I was assuming that A's dice needed to beat or equal B's dice to count.  Now I understand that they just need to beat them.  I have no idea how such a simple mechanic eluded my mostly-evolved brain.

Thanks for the help.  Now to play the game.

--Shane

[JamesDJIII]

I am horrified. I've been doing this wrong in my head for 2 years.

I _really_ need to see this game in action for real. With someone who knows what they are doing.