[PTA] the Penultimate Nightshade Alley

[Joel P. Shempert]

This is apparently the week for awesome Actual Play for me. Two days after I had this killer Over the Edge session with my regular group, I played PTA with my two previously non-gamer friends, Nate and Jenni. We've been playing this series, Nightshade Alley (about a world where faerie Folk and trolls and ghoulies live in the shadows and prey on a bleak and mistrustful humanity), for something like half a year, due to irregularity and complications in getting together. Finally we're nearing completion, and things are really starting to cook.

Our characters are:

Nate: Rodric the young and grim monster hunter, mistrustful and bitter toward anything Fae after his family's grisly fate years ago.

Jenni: Catlyn the cold manipulator, working her way up (as a human) in Faerie power circles, in consuming pursuit of revenge.

Me: Wintermere the half-Fae girl, searching for belonging and acceptance while on the run from a terrible Faerie debt.

For this episode, our fourth, Screen Presence was Rodric 1, Catlyn 3, Wintermere 2, with Rod just having his spotlight last episode, and Winter's coming up in the next. We realized that we hadn't really revealed anything about Catlyn's revenge motive, so we decided a lot of flashbacks were in order. These flashbacks were interspersed with scenes of Cat's quest, begun last Ep, for the secret of Cold Iron, the only thing that can kill the Fair Folk. Thus as all the pieces of background are coming together, we culminate in the forging of the Cold Iron dagger, so that we simultaneously know who Catlyn wants dead and why, and that she has the means to do it. Meanwhile, Rodric and Wintermere were traveling together, Rod's past secrets all spelled out last Ep, he now on the path to find answers and probably retribution. We decided he would (as an SP 1) fade into the background while we focus more on Winter, revealing the mystery of what she's running from and why, to set up for the final act.

While my initial hunch was correct that folks with no roleplaying experience would take to PTA more easily than experienced gamers, we've had some rough patches as we figure out together how to make the game work. Most of 'em are my fault. For instance, you may notice we don't have a Producer. That's 'cause I got greedy and wanted to get a piece of the Protagonist action, but we found it was hard to drive toward conflicts without (duh) the player whose job that is. Since we realized this, I've been acting as a sort of pseudo-producer, but by then a lot of damage had been done in terms of the vagueness of issues and conflict-potential. For instance, in Ep 3, Rod's spotlight, I found I had to cram ALL the challenging of the character's drives and beliefs into that episode, because we'd basically done nothing with it up to that point. Other problems include misinterpretation of the rules, particularly about what conflicts are kosher, and a weird lack of ability to get the fanmail machine really humming.

We didn't get a lot of actual conflict out of this episode. Mainly because we hadn't really fleshed out Catlyn's whole revenge backstory, only hinted at it, so this episode was spent mostly in flashback to lay it out for the "viewer." But it was cool flashback. We were all engaged in what was going on. It's just that there wasn't much conflict-potential, since it was all in the past. What do you do, have a conflict to see if Cat becomes bitter and cruel in the wake of her tragedy? We already know she becomes that. So, no conflict. Just cool setup for next Ep.

More grating to me was the lack of conflict in the present, particularly on Wintermere's side. Perhaps part of the problem was that I was kind of producing for myself (Lord knows what it'll be like next Ep, her spotlight!). But I kept saying, "OK, what kind of conflict can play into her Belonging, here," and the other players were just, "Nah, we don't need one." I kept thinking yes, we DO need one, but damned if I could figure out what. Rodric already gruffly accepted her, so no conflict there. And  precious few other people to interact with. Similar problem with Catlyn's present-day scenes. Mostly they involved the steps toward obtaining her Fae-killing weapon, which was necessary to the plot, so we couldn't mess with that. I remember the last scene, of Catlyn entering the Faerie underworld (where the others are already journeying) with knife in hand; I was sitting there looking at the 7 or so budget remaining, and saying we've gotta have a conflict for the last scene. Nate and Jenni were saying "no, it's fine." And I was like, "but, but. . ." We finally did have a conflict, over whether the target of her revenge knew she was coming. Cat lost, so we ended on a nice ominous "I have you right where I want you" note with the villain.

Ok, so with all these hangups and frustrations, where's this Awesome Play you've been promising, Joel? Well, I'll tell you. First, a lot of the frustrations are carryovers from earlier in the series when we were flailing. So even "struggle and succeed" is better than that. Second, there were a lot of cool things about this episode:

• Cool collaboration. We had a lot of ideas flying around the table and getting picked up by different players. Like, I opened with a scene of some faerie nastiness being done to some random folks that was just throwaway, meant to show the badness of Cat's nemesis, and use one of my little notes on faerie legend culled from Wikipedia. But Jenni seized on it, and said "maybe that's what happened to Catlyn's beloved," and it became a parallel scene during the flashbacks. And later, when it came time to describe the Faerie Underworld  Rod and Winter were traveling through, we were all stuck until Nate threw out some cool ideas that gave us a sense of place and allowed me (the scene's creator) to drive the plot in a cool direction. We were all kind of in tune with each other and "riffing" well.
• Unplanned plot-fleshing. This was in large part owing to the collaboration described above. For instance, the opener that Jenni grabbed to tie to Cat's backstory (It was sort of this evil muse whose inspirations end in madness or death for the recipient.) created this big overarching thing that wasn't there before, leading to intriguing questions, like "What is Queen Mab collecting all these Amadeus-y inspirations for?" We were essentially brainstorming (a strength of PTA), tossing out ideas and running with what worked, discarding what didn't. We'd already established that the Faerie world had a royal hierarchy, with Oberon and Titania as King and Queen on the top, and Queen Mab as a displaced "Mary Queen of Scots" sort of rival power. We kind of assumed but never established that Mab was the source of ALL our protagonists' woes, Rod's family and Winter's debt and Cat's lover. But at the start of the episode I said "you know, it'd be cool if we could drive the story so that in the final act it's really up in the air, who wins or loses, who lives or dies." And so when it came time to work out just what Winter's debt was, all of a sudden it fell into place: She doesn't owe it to Mab, she owes it to Oberon and Titania. And to escape it, the only one who can help her is Queen Mab. And here Catlyn is, coming to KILL Mab! And while we're at it, Rod's family was killed on orders from Ob and Tit as well. And hmm, that Cold Iron knife could be used to kill Oberon and Titania as well as Mab, you know. . .
  
• Cool conflicts. What conflict we DID have was pretty sweet. When Catlyn summons an elf to force him to tell her the secret of Cold Iron, he tries to sow doubt along the lines of "that's what your lover really wanted. . ." It didn't work (not 'cause I didn't TRY!), but it was nice tension. Then Winter had a series of conflicts that chained into cool plot. First, whether her mother really sold her out, foisting the family debt on her. Turns out her mother really DID love her, the contract (eternal slavery) simply moved from mother to daughter on mom's death. Oh, and how'd mommy die? They had her killed of course, because as HALF-fae Winter's unique and more useful to the debt-holders. Second conflict, when she confronts the Royal Agent who's responsible, she needs to escape with her faerie-powers. Does she feel her mother's powers surge through her, so she knows she's still protected and loved, OR does she feel nothing but the knowledge that her mom is dead and gone, and feel more alone than ever? Well, in a flagrant reversal of her fortunes in previous Eps, Winter won both conflicts, and ended up with spirits bolstered for the struggle ahead.
• Fanmail. It was still a bit sluggish, but I think I may have finally gotten through to Nate and Jen on the generous use of fanmail necessary to make the game really hum. It happened when Jenni was making a silly and sarcastic plot suggestion from a scene, then took it back right away, "no, not really." It made us all laugh, and Nate said "here's fanmail for that, oh, just kidding." And I was like "why?" They looked at me, like, "huh?" And I said, "no, really, we all enjoyed the comment. Here, I will give you fanmail for it," and did so. And everybody kind of went "O-oh," and the FM flowed more freely after that. Hopefully it'll continue to do so.

So that's the session. Lots of cool stuff coming together here. In a way, this was almost like a practice series for us, letting us get the hang of PTA bit by bit, so that if we tried a new series, I think it would rock. My druthers is for something completely real-world and normal-life, since the blank slate of our "fantasy" concept was what especially killed the conflicts and other human elements. One thing that occurs to me about this series as it approaches the final installment: In a way, we're kind of set up for a triple-spotlight. The previous spotlights for Cat and Rod served to flesh out their issues and tragic pasts, but didn't really resolve them. Now we've got everyone converging toward a center, both geographically and plot-wise, and everyone's personal agendas amped up to full and set to clash. Maybe this means we did the spotlights "wrong," but from where I'm sitting it looks like we're looking at an awesome final episode. I'm wondering if there are any mechanical or structural changes we should make to accommodate the non-PTA-orthodox way that things have turned out?

Peace,
-Joel

[Joel P. Shempert]

OK, This thread obviously hasn't caught on. But before it slips into fought-page oblivion, I wanted to ask a couple of more directed questions, which are for me both practical and timely. See, it looks like we'll be playing our final episode in about a week, and before that happens, I'd love some advice onthe following, if anyone is gracious enough to read all this and reply:

• The most awkward aspect of this game from the get-go has been our Producerless format (my fault). Now that we're coming into the finale, and the spotlight belongs to the PC whose player has been acting as semi-producer, any suggestions on how to handle that? As far as having the other players shoulder producer-ship, I would say Jenni is probably not up to the job on the grounds that she shies away from decision-making asit is, and Nate would probably be willing, but I don't think he'd drive toward conflict very hard. We can always go with a more even collaboration, which has served us reasonably well as we've gotten our sealegs with the game, but if anyone has thoughts on how to keep the game popping without a true producer, I'm all ears.
• Speaking of driving toward conflict, our situation is pretty loaded, but I'm a bit worried about Nateand Jen shying away from calling conflicts as I described in the OP. Any tips on keeping the conflicts rolling? For instance, do you see any deficiency in the way conflicts are being framed that could be stronger?
• As I mentioned, the way Situation stands going into Ep 5, it almost looks like a three-way spotlight, even though the other PCs have had their spots already. Would it be wise to make some adjustments, like putting everyone upto SP 3 to make it official, making it multi-part, etc?Or would it be fine to leave it as it is?

My sincere thanks if anyone is willing to take the time to respond. Otherwise, 'll just have to kis the thread goodnight, and proceed on my own intuition. :)

Peace,
-Joel

[Paul T]

Hello,

I'm not that familiar with PTA, so this suggestion might be completely inappropriate, but here it goes anyway:

In the absence of a producer, could you change the rules for Fan Mail in some way so that the way to gain it is to throw up interesting conflicts for the other players' characters?

Maybe you don't even need a rule--you just need to start handing it out when it happens. Or maybe someone with PTA experience can figure out how to implement that idea more concretely.

Best of luck,


Paul

[hix]

Given that the Producer frames the opening scene, maybe you want to come up with a beginning situation for your character that's loaded with conflicts that can't be ignored?

[Kami-no-Mark]

I've run PtA a few times as Producer, so let's see if any of this helps....

If it's the finale and you're talking about it being "everyone's spotlight", I'd be tempted to, as you suggested, set Jenni & Nate's Screen Presence to 3, allowing them greater impact.

With regards to it being your spotlight episode, I'd be tempted to take a bit of a backseat, and really ramp it up for the other two.  I've found that the Producer's role is often to lead by example.  That means framing the killer scenes, ramping up the stakes and going for the low blows.

I've had scenes which started off featuring only one of the characters, but when they heard what I wanted to stake (e.g. "an eye for an eye"), there have been cries of "Woah!" followed by them getting in on the scene in order to swing for a more favourable outcome.

I'd be tempted to ramp things up a lot, and hammer Winterene very hard, forcing the other two to become active if they want a successful/happy resolution.  In other words, make it clear that Winterene cannot do this alone, and leave her fate at least partially in their hands.  It's not going to be easy for you, but it should help them see where the meaty goodness lies.

As you said yourself, it's all going to be up in the air, win or lose.  Make it a hard struggle, and you should get some excellent scenes and a fantastic finale.

[cydmab]

Speaking of driving toward conflict, our situation is pretty loaded, but I'm a bit worried about Nateand Jen shying away from calling conflicts as I described in the OP. Any tips on keeping the conflicts rolling? For instance, do you see any deficiency in the way conflicts are being framed that could be stronger?

Two thoughts - why the obsession with more conflicts? :) Maybe the other players are happy with fewer.

OTOH maybe have conflicts resolve factual claims about the world or circumstances that could lead to significant differences in character situation. For example: Is the forging of the Cold Iron dagger completely successful, or was it flawed, rendering it possibly unreliable? This would influence the mental state of Catlyn by altering her degree of confidence in her revenge mission.

[Joel P. Shempert]

Thanks for the input, everyone! I'm starting to feel more confident about the upcoming episode.

In the absence of a producer, could you change the rules for Fan Mail in some way so that the way to gain it is to throw up interesting conflicts for the other players' characters?

Maybe you don't even need a rule--you just need to start handing it out when it happens. Or maybe someone with PTA experience can figure out how to implement that idea more concretely.

This is definitely on the right track for running/playing PTA well in general. I wold probably implement it informally as opposed to modding the rules. I'm definitely all for emphasizing conflict with the fanmail in this way (fanmail is still the most limp aspect of our gameplay), but since this is the last episode I don't know that it'll make much difference at this point. Still, it couldn't hurt.

Given that the Producer frames the opening scene, maybe you want to come up with a beginning situation for your character that's loaded with conflicts that can't be ignored?

It'd definitely help to open things up with a bang. I'll have to give some thought to it between now and Sunday. Only thing is, I don't want to put too much impact into the first scene, 'cause I eed to save some for the finale.

I've run PtA a few times as Producer, so let's see if any of this helps....

If it's the finale and you're talking about it being "everyone's spotlight", I'd be tempted to, as you suggested, set Jenni & Nate's Screen Presence to 3, allowing them greater impact.

With regards to it being your spotlight episode, I'd be tempted to take a bit of a backseat, and really ramp it up for the other two.  I've found that the Producer's role is often to lead by example.  That means framing the killer scenes, ramping up the stakes and going for the low blows.

I've had scenes which started off featuring only one of the characters, but when they heard what I wanted to stake (e.g. "an eye for an eye"), there have been cries of "Woah!" followed by them getting in on the scene in order to swing for a more favourable outcome.

I'd be tempted to ramp things up a lot, and hammer Winterene very hard, forcing the other two to become active if they want a successful/happy resolution.  In other words, make it clear that Winterene cannot do this alone, and leave her fate at least partially in their hands.  It's not going to be easy for you, but it should help them see where the meaty goodness lies.

As you said yourself, it's all going to be up in the air, win or lose.  Make it a hard struggle, and you should get some excellent scenes and a fantastic finale.

Thanks, there's a lot of meaty goodness in there.

Regarding the SP issue, I'll have to talk to them and see what they think. Regarding taking a backseat, I think I'm comfortable with that. . .in some ways Wintermere functions more as a sympathetic NPC alot of the time (perhaps partially because I've had to play pseudo-producer to patch our broken implementation of the System). She's the poor, downtrodden little outcast Fae girl that everyone feels sorry for. Both the other PCs are kind of hardcases, but have had some cause to soften, partly owing to Winter's influence. The softening has been seen so far in Rodric more than Catlyn. In any case, it makes sense to put the screws on the most good-hearted and dumped-on of the protags, and see if the others' vendettas and cold-hearted ways are really worth letting Winter suffer. I'm smiling with glee arleady. :)

Two thoughts - why the obsession with more conflicts? :) Maybe the other players are happy with fewer.

OTOH maybe have conflicts resolve factual claims about the world or circumstances that could lead to significant differences in character situation. For example: Is the forging of the Cold Iron dagger completely successful, or was it flawed, rendering it possibly unreliable? This would influence the mental state of Catlyn by altering her degree of confidence in her revenge mission.

Why? Well, put simply (and using a set f specialized jargon I've found personallyuseful): Colflictz are teh Roxxor. ;)

I'd say there are several reasons why having lots of conflicts are a good idea: First, we're emulating TV shows, and particularly a certain kind of TV show that's just laden with personal conflict and emotional drama. There's no wasted motion. A friend of mine was recently watching DVDs of his favorite shows of childhood (Wonder Woman, Greatest American Hero, etc.) and was shocked at the slowness of pacing and sheer amount of ho-hum, un-urgent, dead time. "Compare it to [new] Battlestar Galactica!" he exclaimed. Everything in that show is about conflict--challenge everyone's wants and beliefs, and escalate, escalate, escalate.

Second, it's what the game is there to do. If we wanted to make up a TV show idea and sit around imagining what these characters are saying and doing, we could just, y'know, do that. But if we want to make up a TV show idea and sit around imagining what these characters are saying and doing, and OH MY GOD WHAT HAPPENS, then we play PTA. The game has relativelylittle procedural interface with roleplaying interactions, but everything that's there, is there for a purpose.

And third, because colflict is what's engaging. It's why all those TV shows lay it on hot and thick, and why PTA is fine-tuned into a smooth and sleek issue=challenging, conflict-resolving machine. Conflict is engaging because if we're going to care about the characters and their dreams, they've got to struggle for it. It can't just be handed to them. They've got to face a series of setbacks before finally getting what they want and living happily ever after, or else they've got to fail to get what they want, in such a way that we all go "oooh, so sad," and maybe even mist up a little like we do when Romeo and Juliet die. (I heard a celtic folk musician  do a song that he had written in response to someone's contention that he "always writes sad songs." In the happy song he wrote in response, the hero. . .does well in his chosen profession (acting), is loved and praised by everyone, grows old and dies comfortably, and goes on to perform for God in heaven. The end. I was left thinking, "Please, dude, stick to sad songs.")

Nate and Jenni may be balking at conflicts on an individual level, but I think deep down they're still hungry for them in the big picture--it's the conflicts that excite and engage everyone at the table. All the scene-setting and color is cool and enjoyable, but conflicts are still king. I think the conflict-resistance is more a symptom of poor framing and scene-loading, mostly on my part--in other words, creating poor conflict-fodder, resulting in me going "c'mon guys, a conflict here?" and them going "eh, I just don't see it."

That said, there's merit in your suggestions for conflict-sources. tweaking factual details like that, especially as a startling revelation ("Ah, but little did you suspect that the man you thought was your father was truly. . .the Nega-Lord of Dimension Zed!) can definitely be a great source of surprises and upsets. From what I've read,a lot of Capes play tends to go like this. I think I would probably utilize something like your suggestion about the dagger yholding it in reserve and possibly throwing it out as part of resolution of a conflict where I've got narration rights. We can always flash back on the forging scene to show the hidden flaw that went unnoticed, and things like that. Thanks for the suggestion!

And thanks once again everyone, for the great input. It'll require some mental effort,but this has the makings of a great final session!

Peace,
-Joel

[cydmab]

Nate and Jenni may be balking at conflicts on an individual level, but I think deep down they're still hungry for them in the big picture

Oh I have no doubt you like conflicts; it's just the old question of paternalism toward other players. Do you give players what they say they want, or what you somehow know they "deep down really want."

I lean toward supplying players what they say they want, not what I theoreticaly think they might want. Especially when *I* wish they would prefer the latter.

OTOH full disclosure - I am interested in hearing stories of PtA games that drift toward freeform. So I have a vested interest in hearing about low-conflict PtA games :)

-William

[Joel P. Shempert]

Hi, William,

I understand where you're coming from. I don't, however, think that I'm depriving players of anything they say they want. Nobody's said, "I really wish we could have fewer conflicts," or "I'm happy with really sparse conflicts.  Rather, as I said, they're skeptical of an individual instance of me saying, "there should be a conflict here."

When I say "deep down what they really want," I'm not peering deep into their soul and acting in my divine and benevolent omniscience. I'm looking at their behavior, what's being reinforced inthe game. Most of the fanmail that's been given has been for cool narration of a conflict result, or to a lesser extent suggestion of a cool conflict itself. So even if they're really just after the cool narration, we need the juicy conflict-tension to get there, and I think we all understand that. Hence, driving toward conflict.

Peace,
-Joel

[hix]

How do you decide how much budget to allocate to any one conflict? (I think I've missed that from either this or an earlier thread.)

[Joel P. Shempert]

From the PTA book:

"spend budget on conflicts where you think it would be interesting if the protagonits failed, or when you'd really like a shot at narrating the outcome. Usually that's going to correspond to high stakes, but it's really just up to you and what you're feeling at the moment."

Other considerations in addition to those guidelines: in one of my early PTA threads, I believe Ron Edwards suggested putting maximum budget pretty much all the time. I have a feeling that only works with more freelyflowing fanmail though. I do try to set budget pretty high as much as I can. The other consideration is pacing: making the budget stretch so there can be a bnig conflict towards the end. To some degree the dwindling budget IS the pacing; if you're running out, it's probably time to go for a finale. But there are times (again, withthe sluggish fanmail) when it seems like the budget runs out before the episode's really "done" narratively. SO I try to balance the "spend early, and spend it hard" school and the more frugal approach.

Peac,
-Joel

[hix]

Sorry, Melingor, I used the wrong pronoun. What I meant to ask was who decides how much budget to allocate to a conflict?

[Kami-no-Mark]

The amount of budget spent is determined by the Producer.

I'm of the school of thought that says spend maximum on the first conflict of the session, and then as wished/required through the rest of the episode.

This has 2 (main) effects:
1. The first conflict is HARD for the players, as the producer has 6 cards to their 1-4.  Think of it as the big challenge/scene from before the credit roll, the one where there's either a killer conflict, or you can see where they blew a lot of their special effects budget.

2.  This puts potential Fanmail out there for the players to give one another.  Fanmail is one of the greatest concepts in the game, which is full of such things.  It's the game currency that allows players to reward one another for contributing to the game.  By doing this early, players can immediately start to use it.

I now can't remember where I got that suggestion from, other than knowing it's not mine.  It's either suggested in the rules or it was from one of the APs or the like.

Now, Joel, you're going to have to let us know how it all went!

[hix]

Sure, the Producer determines how much budget is put into a conflict, but Joel said:

"The most awkward aspect of this game from the get-go has been our Producerless format (my fault). Now that we're coming into the finale, and the spotlight belongs to the PC whose player has been acting as semi-producer ..."

So, Joel, I'm wondering whether it's you who makes the decision about how much budget gets put down, or whether it's a group decision. Either way, what's the process for making the decision & how long does it usually take?

One of the Producer's jobs is to assess 'how big' a conflict is. The game's pace is partly determined by how quickly they do that. Now, I'm not sure how much this has to do with getting more conflict into your episodes. I guess I'm wondering whether your group is spending as much time figuring out 'how big the conflict will be' as you all are on 'what the conflict will be'.

***

Also, in the PTA games I've produced, I've been comfortable letting players say, "It feels like there should be a conflict here," and then having the whole group explore what that conflict should be. This doesn't seem to be happening in your group.

Your group seems to focus on 'what happened' (for instance, Catlyn gains a need for revenge, she gets the weapon she needs) and thinking, "Those things have to happen; they can't be challenged".

How many of your conflicts would you say focus on their Issues? For instance, saying "This thing has to happen, but how much will it hurt (or cost, or change) the character?"

[Joel P. Shempert]

Our general procedure for shared Producer-ship has been for me to act as Producer, unless my Protag is involved in a conflict, in which case another player who is NOT in the concflict acts as Producer. This has worked fine for early episodes, with my SP arc of 11223. But as my PC gets more involved and more central (which is as we planned all along) there's less room to back off and do the Producer thing. And the other PCs are right in the thick if it, too, so we're in a bit of a tight spot regarding that.

Your group seems to focus on 'what happened' (for instance, Catlyn gains a need for revenge, she gets the weapon she needs) and thinking, "Those things have to happen; they can't be challenged".

How many of your conflicts would you say focus on their Issues? For instance, saying "This thing has to happen, but how much will it hurt (or cost, or change) the character?"

This is exactly what we've been shifting and refining the conflicts toward, as the series has progressed. We started out rocky, with a lot of non-issue conflicts like information-gathering. But we all started to realize (but having it come up in Actual Play and realizing "wait, that won't work") that it wouldn't do to have a conflict where failure dead-ends the story. So stuff like "he gets the info, but does he save the endangered innocent?" started to crop up. It's been going gradually better; the big challenge is going to be charginb Situation sufficient to get the conflicts really "popping." Which this thread is really helping with.

Peace,
-Joel