Tales: Thoughts on meta-game rewards - Themes

[Narf the Mouse]

As stated previously, I'm writing an epic-journey, low-magic fantasy game.

On thing I've been thinking about a long time, that I want in there is what I call Themes. Themes are motives, morals, virtues, vices, sayings - Anything that defines a large aspect of the characters' personality. Currently, I'm thinking that a main character (PCs and important NPCs) will have three of them.

A classic power-hungry wizard might have 'Power through Knowledge', 'Might makes Right' and 'Loyalty is Rewarded'.
A warlord might have 'Live by the Sword, Die by the Sword', 'Courage in Battle' and 'Loyalty is Loyalty Returned'.
A Vetinari-type politician might have 'Me against the World - Confusion to the Enemy', 'Knowledge is Power' and 'Rule Efficiently'.

Themes have different uses - Giving a bonus or a penalty for actions directly supporting or opposing the theme, being spent to give a temporary bonus to a roll, being spent to give a permanent bonus to a trait and, the big two, being spent to do medium to high-power magic, like creating a hundred-foot forcefield so your party can escape, cursing someone to wither and die, healing someone from near-death to perfect health, attempting to kill somone instantly...

The second is to allow items to be enchanted by dumping Themes in them - Up to three. So the One Ring might have 'Will to Rule', 'Power is Addictive' and 'Turn you into a Wraith' at high levels. I'm not quite sure how that will work.

Anyway, the way I was thinking of it, Themes would be gained by risking your characters' life. This doesn't nessasarily mean combat; Martin Luther Jr. would get a lot of 'Theme Points' (The name 'Theme Points' bothers me), as would Ghandi.

As I was currently thinking, a character would risk their life, get X number of TPs (Ah, that's another reason to dislike the name) and then each time they risked their life further, they would either have to have spent those (Theme Rewards?) to get new ones, equal the amount they had to bump it by one or exceed their previous risks.

Then I had a thought - Why not record each (Theme Ranks?) as its own, individual chunk of (Theme High?) that must be all spent at the same time. This would mean that (Theme Heights?) would each be worth less, but more granular can be good. It would also mean that each chunk of (Theme Levels? TL sounds nice.) would be a resource that would have to be carefully managed for the situation.

Anyway, thoughts? Is there another method which would work better? Are (Theme Whatevers?) too convoluted? Do they look like they would work well? Anything that you thought of that would be helpfull?

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

First, your "Theme Whatevers" are not too convoluted.  I like them.  But let me suggest that you help players pick themes by organizing them in some way.  For instance, if you want each character to start with 3 themes, organize all the themes into three catagories.  Something like: "Self View", "World View", "Personal Desire."  Or something along those lines.  This will help them choose themes that will be varied in their use so that the GM (if there is one) can create lots of different scenes for the player-characters to act out their themes.  Make sense? :)

Peace,

-Troy

[Narf the Mouse]

Makes sense, thanks. I'm going to use a mix of info on how general/specific I don't want them to be (No 'Go for the Win') and examples. Hadn't thought of catagorizing the theme examples - Although I did think of catagorizing the example epic magic effects (War, Justice, Peace, Vengeance, Helpfull...).

[TroyLovesRPG]

In many RPGs the characters have vices, virtues, alignments and motives that provide a way to gain points/XPs for doing something that is in tune with those choices. More importantly, it should help the player to play the character in a unique way contrasted with wizard, fighter, thief, etc.

I like Troy's categories of "self view", "world view" and "personal desire". Those can determine how the character may behave in different situations. So, having a fighter that prefers "Diplomacy First" could be one who fights as a last resort, but can still hold his own.

If there are themes that are often present in your game system, then it may be efficient for character creation and continuity to list those as choices. Or you could have different ways of playing the character and its up to the player to prioritize them. The list becomes a simple reminder of what is important to the character and how beneficial they are in certain circumstances. Start with a list of themes for each category. Example:
Self View: might, honor, diplomacy, preservation
Personal Desire: power, knowledge, freedom, wealth
World View: leadership, service, justice, charity

The player reviews each category and puts the themes into order beginning with the most important. The first item in each list gives a +2 (dice, points, bonus?), then +1, 0 then -1. The fighter with the list above would fight with honor before attempting a diplomatic solution. He desires power and knowledge over freedom and wealth. He feels that leadership and service outweigh justice and charity. Rearrange the list and you have a completely different profile.

As you see there are no bad or undesirable themes. They are just in a certain priority. The fighter above would be tempted to engage in a ridiculous brawl, even though it is clearly unlawful and could result in his arrest. However, he would gladly spy on an enemy, facing personal injury to bring important information to this superiors. The relative value based on the order not only gives bonuses to the character in those situations but also shows how tempted they are to involve themselves with those situations. A forgotten tomb with some treasure doesn't interest him (low wealth) but since its guarded by some tough monsters he's ready to go (high might).

Troy

[Narf the Mouse]

First, thanks for your help.

Yep, that's one of the points.

I like Self View, World View and Personal Desire. I think, aside from just ranking themes, organizing would also rank which was most important.

On the other hand, I want something simplier and more evocative than just 'Power'. That's why I used phrases. So, for your listing,

Self View: "My Honour is the Defence of the Weak."
Personal Desire: "I will Not be Chained."
World View: "Lead by Mercy."

True, they both say (Different) things about the character, but I like the flavour a whole phrase gives the character.

[TroyLovesRPG]

I like the verbose method, too. Its important that agreement among the players determines how that affects game play. Statements can be interpreted in many different ways. As long as its narrative and the spirit of the game is pursued then there should be no problem.

One addition to the themes that would strengthen the "emphasis" of them is a record of the deeds that support them. It is one thing to proclaim "Lead by Mercy" but another to do it and have others recognize it. That is one thing that plagues many RPGs: there's no integrity required among the players with predetermined alignments and motives. One requirement may be that to maintain the force of their theme, the characters must demonstrate it through action. Facing great challenges supports that and overcoming them with the theme in mind furthers the nature of it.

On the other hand, a character that falls short of their theme, gains a mark on their record. That addition changes the character's reputation and may ultimately weaken the effectiveness of his theme. If "Lead by Mercy" is swayed by wealth then it could be transformed to "Lead by Mercenary". The only way to remove the stain is through some type of quest or penance that directly refutes the offending action. Of course, the character could possibly adopt the new theme, but lose all special bonuses from the discarded one.

The character sheet could essentially be a chronicle of deeds where the first one is of the player's imagination and defines their themes. As adventures are completed, each character is focused upon to determine what was outstanding about their actions. They agree upon a notable deed, clever maneuver, profound remark, etc. If it supports one of their themes then some type of reward is granted. Could be another maneuver, charismatic aura, anonymous patron, etc. If its only noteworthy, then it becomes a simple bonus used during a future situation with similar circumstances.

As the character progresses through the story, he recalls his deeds. "During the battle of Kurak, I bested the barbarian chieftan and captured the horde. I banished the chieftan and let the men return to their families. I invoke mercy during this (new) battle to break their morale." The player gets a bonus to break the enemies' morale by resorting to subdual attacks only. If this works then the player gets a check mark by that entry and it is expanded. That may enhance the effect, allow it to be invoked twice or just provide greater boasting rights.

With this, the characters have depth, the players interact more and the numbers are replaced by creative prose.

Troy

[Narf the Mouse]

Well, if I'm going to have an epic magic catagory mapped to the theme, why not make the epic magic catagory also be the flavour catagory? So, 'Live by the Sword, Die by the Sword' would have a different flavour if mapped to the 'Vengeance' catagory than mapped to the 'Mercenary' catagory, than mapped to the 'Warlord' catagory.

Or, have two catagories - One emotional one and one practical one. So, 'Live by the Sword, Die by the Sword (Vengeance, Warlord) means that the character is out for vengeance, intends to amass power to do so and defines the attitude he has while doing so.

So you have a vengefull character, amassing military power with a fatalistic, die-hard attitude when it comes to combat.

On the other hand, 'My Life above All (Vengeance, Warlord)' would be a vengefull character, amassing military power, who would avoid combat unless there is no other option.

Yep, players are going to have to follow their themes to get the rewards. Specifically, if there's no risk of death, the GM should carefully consider the situation before giving a reward. For less-risky stuff, I'm thinking Drama Points - I can slot them into the Fatigue system.

And certainly, having a record of why they recieved those Theme Rewards (TR could work, too), even after they spend them, would be an interesting facet of play. Have to make it optional, of course. Not everyone will want to record that much.

Didn't think of negative penalties for playing against the theme - But yeah, that could work. Not sure how yet, though.

Hmm - For play-generated traits - Let me do a quick rundown of how I envision my game.

For my gaming attitude, I want win/loss mechanics, I like having an actual story in the game, I think 'You fail/you die' are a perfectly acceptable part of the game - If less-interesting, that does happen in real life and the player should have to think sometimes, not get a free pass, I love playing out my characters' personality, I want things to be relatively realistic from the perspective of the game world - I think that's the major ones.

First, a character has themes. These are the basic defines of a characters' personality; three things they hold to above all.
Second, a character has attributes. They are your basic strength, dexterity, intelligence, senses - A player buys/sells and lists only the ones that aren't zero.
Third, a character has one or more archetypes. These are professions and racial archetypes, like assasin, swashbuckler, knight, wizard, vampire, dragon, lawyer (Ok, maybe not that. This isn't horror... :D )
Fourth, a character has aptitudes, which define their ability in fixed, broad areas of capability.
Fifth, a character also has proficiencies, which are fixed, narrow areas of capability and, as currently written, override aptitudes.

Dice rolls are 3d6.

Now, to use your prose idea,

A character gains a theme reward for being the general who bested the barbarian horde and let them go home in peace.
Later, the barbarians have been gathered under a new warleader.
The character uses the same theme reward to remind the barbarians of the previous truce and peace - In the game, would count as an epic magic effect. Exactly how it worked would have to be workd out with the rules. Probably give a bonus for a theme not only being applicable, but for the theme reward itself being appropriate to the situation.

The second change of your prose idea,

A character gains a theme reward for being the general who bested the barbarian horde and let them go home in peace.
The player writes 'Known for mercy +5' on the character sheet. Thereafter, on any roll to get someone to surrender, you gain a +5 bonus.

A character gains a theme reward for besting a giant in single combat..
The player writes 'Won contest of Strength +3' on the character sheet. Thereafter, they may apply a +3 bonus in any situation in which they use that trait.

Re-write of game idea mechanics.

First, a character has themes. These are the basic defines of a characters' personality; three things they hold to above all.
Second, a character has one or more archetypes. These are professions and racial archetypes, as before.
Third, a character has Deeds. These are things they are known for and have learned to do, like 'Assasinated King Koraver without an alarm being sounded', 'Won the battle of Kurak with minimal bloodshed' or 'Bested a Giant in single combat'.
Fourth, a character has Proficiencies. These are combat manuevers, profound remarks and adeptness at particular things within an area of endeavor - Unfortunatly, I can't think of how those would go.

Man, that's a big post. Ideas, thoughts, anything?