[Giants] Rewards question

[thelostgm]

After much procrastination and discussion with myself over what exactly I wanted to say, I have finally come up with a post.  So here it is: the first post about the game I have been working on for the past few months.

My game is called Giants, and in this game you play a giant struggling to survive by dealing with his or her Hunger and Rage while trying to work with his or her Community.  Giant characters can be just big people, or they can be more supernatural, like the child of a god, or perhaps a Storm Giant.

The game has three types of stats thus far: Little stats (which every character has), Big stats (which only giants can have), and Combined stats (which, again, everyone can have, but giants have in a greater quantity).  Little stats rate from 1-5, Big stats rate from 1-10, and Combined stats from 1-20.  Players roll a number of d6's equal to the stat they are using to determine success (four or higher is a success).

At this point, I need help a creating a system that rewards the characters for playing, i.e., XP.  While I don't necessarily see the game being run for long campaigns, I do see the necessity for characters to grow and learn.  While it is simple to increase one stat every game, I am just not sure that's what I want.  I'd love to hear some other ideas.

[Ben Lehman]

Hey, Jeff.

Sounds like an interesting game.  It might be useful to tie the reward into your game's theme.  Maybe during play giants can become Bigger (lowering Little stats and raising Big states) or Smaller (lowering Big stats and raising Little States.)  Giants that become super-Big are like Gods -- they're powerful, but they can't affect the world.  Giants that become super-Little are just people.

yrs--
--Ben

[Judd]

Jeff,

You've run a few playtests, do you want to talk about what happened and what had to be changed at the table and why?

Maybe also you could invite the players from the playtests to talk about what worked and what didn't for them.

[thelostgm]

Thanks Ben, you've given me something to think about there.  I think it's a neat idea to have a Giant evolve like that, but I am not 100% sure that it goes with what I am looking for.  I'll try it out next time I get a chance to playtest and see how it works.

Judd, yeah I have run three playtests so far and a number of things came up.  I am not sure what was first, but I ended up making a character's Size stat have more of an effect on the Hunger Stat.   Meaning a very large giant would get hungry much quicker than a smaller giant.  The next change was adding the creation of a map during the character creation process.  It allowed us to have a better view of where the giant's territory and towns were located, and really helped us get a grasp on the Community stat.

I'll send out an e-mail to my players and ask them to drop by a speak their mind.

Thanks for the help guys.

[Robert Bohl]

So Jeff, does each table have one giant, or are all the PCs giants, or is it some combination?

Is there a tension between the giants' hunger and their desire to work with their communities?  What's the benefit of working with community as opposed to feeding the hunger?

Generally in reward mechanisms I prefer things that give instant rewards for thematic play.  I also have a personal bias toward change rather than simple accretion.  That is, you're not always getting better, though maybe you are always changing.  But that's my own thing and has little to do with what you're doing here (unless you want it to).

I'm wondering if answering The Big Three or the Power 19 would be helpful?

[Caesar_X]

I really like your concept of Giants struggling.  What if there were certain things that only Giants or little people could do?  For example, Giants are great for breaking things and pulling tree stumps.  But maybe their hands aren't so good for building things and they are too big to crawl through tunnels to find the good food that keeps running away.  It might create interesting dependencies for the players and allow the GM to setup fun conflicts.  And it could help address your need for a reward system and to help players advance.

Feel free to expand or toss as you like.  Just wanted to add some input.

Chris
Caesar_X@yahoo.com

Read about 'Touch of Noir' here: http://troupeberkeley.infogami.com/Noir

[thelostgm]

-Chris thanks for the reply.  I have something worked out for giants wanting to help out communities, but mentioning that there are certain things they can't do well is great.

-Hey Rob, each player has their own giant that they play during the game.

I think I have set it up to create a good deal of tension between a giant and their Community, plus Hunger and Rage.  Every scene a giant has they mark of a Hunger point.  When their hunger reaches zero they start to take damage and they start marking off Rage.  Communities are where you get your food (reduce Hunger), and every time you try and get something from your community it will ask something in return.

I think I would prefer a more immediate reward.  Change is good too, something to think about.

Actually, I answered the Big three when I first came up with the game but didn't want to post them here first.  But since you mentioned them, here they are.
-What is your game about?
The game is about struggling with being a giant while trying to work with others.

-How is your game about that?
The game encourages that by three stats (Hunger, Rage, and Community) feeding off of one another.

-What behaviors does it reward or encourage?
Working with others to control your urges.

[contracycle]

At this point, I need help a creating a system that rewards the characters for playing, i.e., XP.  While I don't necessarily see the game being run for long campaigns, I do see the necessity for characters to grow and learn.  While it is simple to increase one stat every game, I am just not sure that's what I want.  I'd love to hear some other ideas.

Why?

Most orthodox RPG's are built around the continual desire to make a more powerful character.  I'm not sure this is actually meaningful myself myself, but it more or less works.  Your characters are already tremendously powerful, the desire to grow is probably not chief among them - indeed, as has already been proposed, Giants may well desire to shrink.

How do you win?  How do you finish?  When would know that NOW is an appropriate time to stop playing, that you are done?

[Robert Bohl]

So let me see if I get this: You need to work with your Community to keep your Hunger tamped down.  If you fail to do so, your Hunger will increase, and this will lead to Rage, which could further destroy Community?  It seems like there might be a vicious circle there, or am I misunderstanding or unaware of something?

Also what is the impetus for Giants to work together?

[Manicrack]

Ok, so from all I read in this post, this is what I am thinking.

The Giants are on the one hand an immensive destructive power, driven by rage and hunger, that are feared far and wide.
On the other hand, they can be just as caring and sincere as any man, and are a great tool for a community.

I like the idea, of a Giant growing into two directions: Becoming smaller, maybe smarter, more human or becoming more angry, driven by rage, a monstrous giant beast.

How about the players write two senteces down each. One for Rage and one for Community. The Senteces describe what ticks the Giant off, and what (or who) he cares enough about to risk his live over.

Every time a Giant acts on one or the other, he moves in someway in one direction on the Human-Giant Scale.

Just an idea

-Kolja

[CommonDialog]

I agree that the "one stat person session" advancement you mentioned is a little simplistic, but I'm feeling a bit in-the-dark-ish.  Can you either go into more detail about tension between Giant and community or what type of scenes you see occuring?  To my perhaps overly simplified view of things, XP is the reward for the characters acheiving or working to acheive certain goals.

I'm having a hard time articulating this next part.  If it's not clear, then I'll try again. 

From reading your post, it sounds like the goals may be defined by interplay of rage, hunger, and community and so the goal becomes keeping those things in harmony.  If that's the whole point of the game, then I think you can do something like a challenge rating in DnD (please don't throw anything at me loyal Forge readers.)  But if the real point of the game is the interplay/conflict of those stats alone, then I would simply create a mechanic to determine how difficult a challenge is (perhaps fighting off rage when you're really hungry or not hitting a community member where you are very upset) and then award XP for making rolls.

However, I feel like from what I know about the way you play and run games (via the podcast), there's something more.  Something like keys or secrets or something that either you did not mention or that I'm not getting.  Maybe even beliefs and instincts, but something more that defines from a roleplaying aspect how to play the character as s/he balances the three stats.  Obviously following that should be the way to earn XP.

[thelostgm]

Hey folks, first let me say thanks for the feedback.  Sorry if this huge response crosses your eyes.

Why?

Most orthodox RPG's are built around the continual desire to make a more powerful character.  I'm not sure this is actually meaningful myself myself, but it more or less works.  Your characters are already tremendously powerful, the desire to grow is probably not chief among them - indeed, as has already been proposed, Giants may well desire to shrink.

How do you win?  How do you finish?  When would know that NOW is an appropriate time to stop playing, that you are done?

Why, because I'd just like to see some other options.  I think something needs to reward characters but I am not sure exactly what I want.  So I thought I'd stop by the Forge and see what people had to say.

I think the idea of a Giant growing or shrinking in certain ways is cool.  I have to give that one some thought, and playtest, though.

There are three steps to the character creation process, character, map, and What is your Giant hungry to accomplish?  That last question really helps me set up what this game is going to be about, and when it is done.

So let me see if I get this: You need to work with your Community to keep your Hunger tamped down.  If you fail to do so, your Hunger will increase, and this will lead to Rage, which could further destroy Community?  It seems like there might be a vicious circle there, or am I misunderstanding or unaware of something?

Also what is the impetus for Giants to work together?

One of the main themes of this game is exactly that, dealing with your giant's needs (Hunger, Community, and others).  If you ignore them for too long they will become more than just needs, but major issues.  When your giant asks for something from their community, food, armour, weapons, etc, that community will want something back, protection, help building a wall, etc.  If a Giant goes too long without eating they could loose control to their rage.  There is no absolute hard rule that says they must take it out on their community however.

Getting giants to work together does take a little bit of thought, not much more than many other games I should think.  Often giants will work together to accomplish some greater goal, for example, defeating a great foe that threatens both of their communities.  A Giant's community is everything, when that is threatened they should really start to notice.

Not sure if I answered that last question to your satisfaction, let me know and I'll try and explain a little better.

Ok, so from all I read in this post, this is what I am thinking.

The Giants are on the one hand an immensive destructive power, driven by rage and hunger, that are feared far and wide.
On the other hand, they can be just as caring and sincere as any man, and are a great tool for a community.

I like the idea, of a Giant growing into two directions: Becoming smaller, maybe smarter, more human or becoming more angry, driven by rage, a monstrous giant beast.

How about the players write two senteces down each. One for Rage and one for Community. The Senteces describe what ticks the Giant off, and what (or who) he cares enough about to risk his live over.

Every time a Giant acts on one or the other, he moves in someway in one direction on the Human-Giant Scale.

Just an idea

-Kolja

Yes, you are on the right track, but let me clarify one thing.  Giants are not driven by Rage until they get pissed off.  Meaning, giants are not always pissed off.

During the character creation process players describe their giant's community, but thus far I have done nothing with describing rage.  A sentence for rage is another interesting idea, I'll try it out

I agree that the "one stat person session" advancement you mentioned is a little simplistic, but I'm feeling a bit in-the-dark-ish.  Can you either go into more detail about tension between Giant and community or what type of scenes you see occuring?  To my perhaps overly simplified view of things, XP is the reward for the characters acheiving or working to acheive certain goals.

I'm having a hard time articulating this next part.  If it's not clear, then I'll try again. 

From reading your post, it sounds like the goals may be defined by interplay of rage, hunger, and community and so the goal becomes keeping those things in harmony.  If that's the whole point of the game, then I think you can do something like a challenge rating in DnD (please don't throw anything at me loyal Forge readers.)  But if the real point of the game is the interplay/conflict of those stats alone, then I would simply create a mechanic to determine how difficult a challenge is (perhaps fighting off rage when you're really hungry or not hitting a community member where you are very upset) and then award XP for making rolls.

However, I feel like from what I know about the way you play and run games (via the podcast), there's something more.  Something like keys or secrets or something that either you did not mention or that I'm not getting.  Maybe even beliefs and instincts, but something more that defines from a roleplaying aspect how to play the character as s/he balances the three stats.  Obviously following that should be the way to earn XP.

Characters are forced to rely on their community for a number of things, food, arms, armour, each time they ask something of their community the GM has the community asks for something in return.  While the giant does not have to say yes, as the giant uses that community more and more the requests get bigger and bigger.  A first request might be to deal with a beast that has been killing off the town's livestock.  A second request might be to kill off a pack of beasts that are eating just about everything the town, and hence the giant, survives off of.  A third might be to kill off the beasts that are now attacking and eating the towns folk.  Eventually, if a giant ignores their community for too long that community will suffer in some way.

It might be that every time a giant fulfills their communities request they get a reward.  Just a thought.

Hmm, that first paragraph got me thinking, the one goal that characters have, beyond dealing with normal giant needs, comes from a question I ask at the last part of character creation.  What is your giant hungry to accomplish.  So far answers have been as simple become high king of the land.  Another was release my trapped floating cloud city so that it can once again travel the world.  The answers from that one question have been nothing but awesome.  That's what has really directed what we do with each game.  To bring it back to the point of this post, characters should obviously be rewarded for accomplishing that goal.

It seems that after several responses there are questions that could be answered just by people seeing what I have.  Sometime this week I'll try and get a PDF together and put it up on a website so you all can take a look.

[Christian Liberg]

Hey there.

Im thinking, you are running with the bad circle still, so perhaps you could do a reward scheme, which would kind of run in that same way?

For instance, if your giant was rewarded with lets say extra strength or so, he would have a smaller amount of hunger points, or burn them faster, and perhaps a smaller amount og rage points or burn them faster.

Now quite personally i would think that i would look into what kind of tasks the communities would like the giant to help with, and then create rewards which would help the giant do just that. but while the Giant gets that extra effect or bonus or whatever, the Giant also has an increasing problem with fighting the rage.