Star Wars Pre-and Post-Game Report

[Eric.Brennan]

[This post is my attempt to get more involved in the Actual Play forum after a talk with some regulars, and while it's light on local terms, if you feel the need to use 'em, go for it.]

Part I: Prep

   So, I played the new d20 Star Wars Revised game on Saturday night, and while several of my players say it was a success, I'm a mite bit disappointed.

   We had a one-shot slot open up and I decided to run either Spycraft or the new Star Trek as a break from Exalted or the usual suspects.  This is not the gaming  group that does Sorcerer or will try Nobilis.  However, the players, swept up by Episode II fever, wanted Star Wars, and I gave it to them.  We would end up playing two days after Attack of the Clones came out, meaning that player excitement would either be at a peak or completely nil, depending on how they liked the movie - I mean, how many times have you come out of a movie and were thinking about how "If only I could that..."?  That's what I wanted to capitalize on.

   I polled RPG.net and got some good responses on the question of "What makes Star Wars feel the way it does?"  With that in mind, I designed several PCs (for one shots the players don't want to have to do that) and then designed several "set pieces" around which to wrap a plot, with the story vague idea of something set in the initial split between the Sith and the Jedi.  Keeping in mind that sometimes one-shots blossom into more, I designed the first game as a self-contained story, a la Star Wars itself, but came up with two follow-up adventures for a trilogy.

    I came up with three Jedi (two Jedi Guardians and a Jedi Consular class,) a bounty-hunter (Soldier class,) a young scavenger with Force potential (Fringer,) and a Senator (Noble.)  

   The plot was taken from two throwaway lines in Episode II and the novelization of Episode I.  The novel mentions the rise of the Sith as a breakaway faction of Jedi and their fall to internal strife after about a decade.  The two throwaway lines were-"The Republic has stood for a thousand years" and "There hasn't been a war in a thousand years."  To aid the feel of the game, I downloaded LucasArts concept art and bought the "Art of Episode II," giving me nice pics that "look" Star Wars.  I would be able to whip out pictures and cement the feel of the game.  (As a note to people who care about canon, I ignored /all of the books and comics/ and just paid attention to the films, since my experience with the books and the comics are that they don't feel "Star Wars.")

   So that beggars the question, what feels Star Wars?  Well, I put it down to several points.  1.  Tech is ubiquitous and unimportant.  Sci-fi traditionally focuses on technology to a certain extent, but in Star Wars it isn't paid attention to at all.  It doesn't drive the plot, and a blaster in Episode I is the same as a blaster in Episode IV - they just look different.  There is no difference between a blaster and a six-shooter.  2.  The players are the center of the story.  3.  In media res - everything starts with action, and the action holds steady for the most part.  If you want more of where I'm coming from, check out the RPG.net thread here [http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5682]  

In this, the game is unabashedly sim-the idea is to play /in/ a Star Wars movie.

   The plot is that a group of Jedi are sent with a Senator to oversee a world (Fondor) joining the new Republic being formed.  (Up until this point the Jedi have been knights errant, rather than servants of the Republic.)  The ship is stopped by a blockade by Mandalorian troops, who claim they've been "invited" by the government to put a stop to smuggling.  The players will end up on-world, meet the Fringer, meet the Soldier, and try to get offworld and back to Coruscant to warn the new Republic that the Mandalorians are trying to carve out an empire before these worlds join.  In the process, the players realize the Mandalorians are being aided by Jedi.  

   Back on Coruscant, there's a showdown in the Jedi chambers as the players give their evidence.  The non-Jedi players take the role of Jedi council members as the debate goes on about methodology and how the Force rewards those who take just as much as it rewards those who seek to avoid aggression.  The (eventual) Sith members leave, and the PCs are left to defend Fondor by slowing down the Mandalorian fleet (space battle) and activating the ancient planetary defense systems which the Fringer knows about, but where there are probably Jedi trying to activate those same defenses for the Mandalorians.

   The big conflict setpieces are the battle on the starship in the beginning; the battle  to get offworld while harried by Mandalorians and dark Jedi; the showdown in the Jedi chambers; the final battle to save Fondor.

   So let's see where it went wrong, shall we?

[Eric.Brennan]

Part II: Actual Play
   The game actually went fairly well-the PCs hit all of the encounters, the Jedi council debate went very well given how novel a thing it was for our group, and everybody seemed to have a good time.  We didn't make it to the final battle, and they're planning a second night to finish that. Combat wise, everything moved quickly, mainly because everybody was familiar with D&D 3e.  I let them tell me what they were going to do during the ship combat and I just translated that into maneuvers and gave them difficulties.  As far as "feel" goes, I was happy and people said I got the names and feel of Star Wars down, as well as the pacing.

   But-the problems:

1) System wise, I started the PCs at first level to minimize the number of crunchy bits they had to deal with.  At least one player had /never/ played any RPGs before, so I had her in mind.  However, 1st level in the d20 system in no way reflects the protagonists of any movie, apparently, and it turns out to be decidedly /unheroic/.  In future, if I ever do this again, I'll start them at 3rd or 4th.  Two of the Jedi went down to rifle shots fairly quickly in the first actual battle against Mandalorians and Jedi.  Next game, I'll quietly amp everyone's levels, I think.
   I might have fudged dice rolls to keep the Jedi up, but players in my group can tell when that's happening and it seems to "disturb" things for everybody.  

   2) Player conflict: One of the newbies, who's only been playing for a year, was upset about being given a Jedi Consular who was good at the lightsaber, since that wasn't the "combat class for Jedi." Despite the fact that the PC was better with a lightsaber than the Jedi Guardians, he was just really angry and petty about the entire thing.  (It was my fault for trying to be tricky about classes, I guess.)  One of the Jedi Guardians exchanged characters with this fellow, but the dispute cast a pall across the entire evening.  The guy who gave up his character had been excited about playing it, since I had quizzed them all about what they wanted to play the week before, and they had each gotten what they wanted (until this problem.)

   3) As far as being "in" character goes, we had a real disconnect.  The guy who I've tagged as a "casual" gamer was /really/ in character with his bounty hunter.  The Fringer is one of my solid players, and he was /dead/ on, even going so far as to take control of the setting and make up names for locations, family members, slang, and local fauna.  My wife, who wanted a "non-combat" character, turned out to actually want a combat character, and was unhappy with the Senator I gave her.  The two Jedi who had exchanged characters were unhappy all night, and even unhappier when rifle fire dropped them.  
The new girl was happy and seemed to enjoy her character, but was timid about getting into character.  I hadn't put any guidance on the sheets for anyone, since I wanted them to "fill in the blanks," but I flubbed by not giving her any clues about how to role-play.  

   4) A behind the scenes factor was that almost all of the players had said that they'd rather play in a post-Return of the Jedi game.  The problem is, I didn't feel passionately about that and was short on ideas.  The "Old Republic" game felt right, so I ran it anyway - and I was right to do so.  While the players were a bit upset at first about the placement of the adventure in time, when they realized they were in the middle of the Sith Uprising the tension and excitement skyrocketed.  

   5) Finally, the Jedi just weren't into it in the beginning.  When the ship was searched, none of them even bothered to "sense" whether the Mandalorians were up to something, thus allowing the Mandalorians to place a bomb on board the ship.  While the excitement level ramped up as soon as the ship blew up and people were forced on board an escape capsule, the other players slammed the two regular players (not the new girl) for playing slacker Jedi.

   FWIW, I felt that Star Wars d20 allowed me to achieve my goals, and it did simulate Star Wars with a bit of work on my part and a lot of brainstorming.  If the goal of the game is to simulate the movies, then the rules should start players out at 4th level or so.  I think a disconnect in the game is that it wants to satisfy fans of the film /and/ fans of the Expanded Universe, and the two are, in my opinion, mutually exclusive.  I think a novice GM is going to be able to run a space fantasy game with the Star Wars RPG, but it won't feel like Star Wars unless the person figures out "what makes Star Wars (the film experience) tick?"

So-next time, what could I do differently?  Does anybody have any questions?  Any comments?

[Valamir]

I really like Star Wars d20 better than the WEG game (and I have all the old WEG stuff and played it to death when it came out).  I think the story line you came up with was perfectly Star Wars and sound like it should have been great.  I do agree with starting characters out at 3-4 level or so and have been using 3rd to 5th as standard D&D starting points for every D&D game I've DMed since First Edition.  Its even more important with the new openness to multiclassing and you can get some really killer starting characters.  Justifying the multiclass also leads players to spend some additional time on background.

Aside from the petty squabble about characters, I'm not sure how your game was "wrong".  Its clear from your tone that you were disappointed, but I'm having trouble fingering "about what".  Your players seemed to enjoy it enough to turn a one shot into a second session.

The only suggestion in that regard that I might make is perhaps loosening up the story line a bit instead of worrying about "hitting all of the encounters" you could allow the players more leeway in coming up with their own encounters.  On the other hand every SW movie since the first one has seemed right on screen very heavily "scripted".  The movie plots are very very linear in that regard and so adventures meant to mimick them might justifiably be as well.

[Zak Arntson]

1) System wise, I started the PCs at first level to minimize the number of crunchy bits they had to deal with.
...
Next game, I'll quietly amp everyone's levels, I think.

Possible System fixes:
- Damage can be put instead into an "inconvenience" instead of Vitality/Wounds. The rifle shots would score a "hit" which means: "You are pressed down and cannot cross the bridge/open space/whatever without getting hit."
- Mook rules. See Atlas Games' _Burning Shaolin_. Or some variant like it. Try: Mooks can only wound, not kill (there is vitality vs. wounds, right? I don't know Star Wars d20). Mooks have 4hp each.

Your thoughts on ramping up level sounds good, for a pure d20 fix. That way you can balance Challenge Ratings without worrying about 1 shot = PC death.

2 Player conflict
...
since I had quizzed them all about what they wanted to play the week before, and they had each gotten what they wanted (until this problem.)

That _is_ a problem. I found with my d20 Chtulhu game that with pre-printed char sheets, and the Players knowing what they want before doing any rolling/writing down helped things flow pretty smoothly. Pre-gen PCs tend to remove Player-involvement. If you want to pregenerate, try partial creation, and then let the Players customize before the game starts.

Also, introducing or having the Players introduce relationships should help. Make sure they share a common interest/familial bond. In my d20 Cthulhu, it was: You are all in the same dorm, and must share some interest that keeps you out at night. Their answer: Skaters who broadcast their midnight runs on the Internet.

3) As far as being "in" character goes, we had a real disconnect.

I think this ties in with #2 above. I'm guessing It's not the issue of in-character, but rather the non-commitment and/or dissatisfaction that hurt play.

4) ... almost all of the players had said that they'd rather play in a post-Return of the Jedi game.
...
The "Old Republic" game felt right, so I ran it anyway - and I was right to do so.

Although your decision turned out acceptable, I'd advise against doing this in the future unless your group is okay with giving you this kind of decision-making power. This could cause a lot of dissatisfaction/resentment.

Finally, the Jedi just weren't into it in the beginning.  When the ship was searched, none of them even bothered to "sense" whether the Mandalorians were up to something

Two things: While the game is winding up, and everyone's getting used to their PCs, feel free to offer suggestions. You want the Jedis to act more Jedi-like? Suggest they use some powers, and _reward_ them for it.

If the goal of the game is to simulate the movies, then the rules should start players out at 4th level or so.

I would place the blame on the game. If it says Star Wars, you shouldn't have to know anything but _what's in the book_. As an aside, how is the GM's section? I was so impressed by d20 Call of Cthulhu's scenario design and GM advice/tools, that if I didn't know that it was due to John Tynes, I'd consider grabbing SW Revised.

[Bankuei]

1) Yep, I've had this same problem with D&D.  Start higher level unless you really want to be a notch above the standard redshirt.
2) Um, that's personal issues.  If someone's going to throw a fit, they can't play this game, send them outside to the swing set.  Actually, I'd say pick your players more carefully.  Gaming works like anarcho-democracy by consensus, that is, the group is more important than any individual.
3)  It's really hard to get folks to identify to characters in one shots, not to mention that D20 as a whole gives very little advice on roleplaying in general.  My best advice is to simplify your one-shot scenarios.
4) Listen to your players.  Give 'em what they want. See #2.
5)

When the ship was searched, none of them even bothered to "sense" whether the Mandalorians were up to something, thus allowing the Mandalorians to place a bomb on board the ship

Never rely on the players to take a proactive action to succeed/fail a scene, only to give them benefits to other scenes.  Often this is a lack of communication by the GM, or a lack of knowledge of the rules or background by the players.  For example, if I didn't know that Maladorians would be the type to plant a bomb, I wouldn't go around sensing, or if I didn't know how sensing worked in the game, I wouldn't know to use it.  Was Ben Kenobi actively "sensing" when he felt Aldaran go boom? I'd say just have the GM say, "Something's wrong, you sense danger, roll to figure it out"

the other players slammed the two regular players (not the new girl) for playing slacker Jedi.

Um, constructive criticism anyone? :P

It seems that most of the issues that you're bringing up are communication issues rather than anything necessarily roleplaying specific to your prep or your system.  Any thoughts on that?

Chris

[Ron Edwards]

Hey,

I've played Star Wars D20 twice, in one-shot scenarios. In each case, the characters provided by the GM (in both cases, the concept based on player input beforehand) were 8th-10th level. The one exception was the "young Jedi," who was 5th or 6th.

I think that was a good move on our GM's part. These turned out to reflect the amateur and experienced character competencies from the movies pretty well.

What he did, basically, was throw out the notion of level-changing (which was irrelevant to the one-shots anyway) and use level only as a method of establishing character competence - essentially, using it as character points are used in GURPS.

Best,
Ron

[joshua neff]

Eric--

I agree with you & Ron, lower levels in Star Wars is no fun. Definitely start them at higher level.

It seems like for the most part you know what went wrong. You have a good sense of Star Wars (tech is casual, PCs are central, pace moves quickly)--that's exactly the kind of Star Wars game I'd like to play in. But not all of the Players were committed to that--at least, that what it sounds like to me. Chris (Bankuei) has it, I think. I like his advice. You don't want to over-analyze things with your group, but at the same time, you want to make sure communication is occuring & everyone is on the same page. Instead of just polling us internet denizens on what makes a good Star Wars story, talk about with your group. See what gets them all jazzed & what doesn't.

And as an aside: was it just me, or did Episode II (which I liked a whole hell of a lot) seem like a heavily railroaded RPG adventure? The GM, through the Jedi Council, tells PC Obi-Wan & PC Anikan "go here & do this". Obi-Wan goes & gets a bunch of clues, sends a message to the Council who (again, the GM) tell him, "Okay, now go here & do this."

[Eric.Brennan]

I'll respond to everybody at once, I guess.

Valamir,
>>>>>The only suggestion in that regard that I might make is perhaps loosening up the story line a bit instead of worrying about "hitting all of the encounters" you could allow the players more leeway in coming up with their own encounters. On the other hand every SW movie since the first one has seemed right on screen very heavily "scripted". The movie plots are very very linear in that regard and so adventures meant to mimick them might justifiably be as well.<<<<<

One thing that got discussed on the RPG.net thread and that a buddy who wasn't there and I discussed pre-game is the ability to railroad in Star Wars.  While I try to very /very/ railroad-free, since it infuriates me as a player, somebody commented that Star Wars as a setting is chock full of it.  The droids get bought by Luke and are kept together because another droid blows up; Artoo tells Luke his old owner was Kenobi, but Luke ignores him, so Artoo then shows the hologram of Princess Leia addressed to Ben.  This intrigues Luke, but he still sticks aroundso Artoo then runs away.  Luke drives off to find Artoo, but then is attacked by Tusken Raiders and is about to die when, who shows up?  Ben.  If that was a game adventure, it would be the biggest railroad in history.

With that said, I didn't want to railroad, but I did want to make sure they got to point B, then point C, etc.  I'm not sure if I did it well, since they did completely avoid the first combat on the ship, and have written off the space combat in the final battle, but my goal was to make sure they hit the opportunity to /have/ those encounters--how they got there, and what they did once there, was up to them.

Is that kosher, do you think?  I was trying to simulate the linearity of SW plotting...
_______________________________

Zak
>>>>>Also, introducing or having the Players introduce relationships should help. Make sure they share a common interest/familial bond. In my d20 Cthulhu, it was: You are all in the same dorm, and must share some interest that keeps you out at night. Their answer: Skaters who broadcast their midnight runs on the Internet. <<<<<

I make sure to have such a hook in my normal campaigns, but I underestimated the need for it in this one.  I also wanted to play up the relationship between PC Jedi and the other Jedi who become Sith, but I didn't go there, due to the level of play I was receiving.  Have any of you eliminated plots before they appeared but during a game because you were /sure/ they'd fall flat?

>>>>>Although your decision turned out acceptable, I'd advise against doing this in the future unless your group is okay with giving you this kind of decision-making power. This could cause a lot of dissatisfaction/resentment. <<<<<<

You're right.  My wife is the one who told me I shouldn't have even asked, since I was already sure what I wanted to do when I posed the question -- essentially, I was hoping for confirmation and "permission," and when I didn't get it, it threw things for a loop.
_______________________________

Bankuei,
>>>>>Um, that's personal issues. If someone's going to throw a fit, they can't play this game, send them outside to the swing set. Actually, I'd say pick your players more carefully. Gaming works like anarcho-democracy by consensus, that is, the group is more important than any individual. <<<<<
Yeah.  The weird thing is, the player was just having an off-night or something, since he's the most invested newbie we have.  I think what threw me was that all of this was coming from /him/, which is one reason why I didn't take a hardline approach.  I don't know if I made a mistake and enabled future behavior of a similar sort or not...

>>>>Never rely on the players to take a proactive action to succeed/fail a scene, only to give them benefits to other scenes. Often this is a lack of communication by the GM, or a lack of knowledge of the rules or background by the players. For example, if I didn't know that Maladorians would be the type to plant a bomb, I wouldn't go around sensing, or if I didn't know how sensing worked in the game, I wouldn't know to use it. Was Ben Kenobi actively "sensing" when he felt Aldaran go boom? I'd say just have the GM say, "Something's wrong, you sense danger, roll to figure it out" <<<<<

When I first read this, my hackles went up and I started to get defensive, but I see you're right...  I had envisioned that scene's purpose "pregame" as a chance for the Jedi players to get a feel for their powers, and when they didn't use them, I viewed it as a failure.  Good advice.
_______________________________
Ron,

>>>>>I think that was a good move on our GM's part. These turned out to reflect the amateur and experienced character competencies from the movies pretty well. <<<<<

What makes my flub there more painful is that I've always understood that 1st level PCs are /rank/ amateurs, and I knew that the "padawan Obi Wan" in the Phantom Menace was a 6th or 7th level PC--so I knew these characters weren't even as good as what the movies frame as an apprentice.  And yet, I went with it anyway in order to reduce the amount of stuff PCs had to deal with on a sheet for the first game, especially the new girl.  I have a feeling I should have cut it down the middle, perhaps, or taken a cue from the boxed introductory set and simplified characters to their essentials...maybe even forgone a character sheet entirely and just write up a point by point analysis of what each PC could do...

--Eric

[Eric.Brennan]

It seems like for the most part you know what went wrong. You have a good sense of Star Wars (tech is casual, PCs are central, pace moves quickly)--that's exactly the kind of Star Wars game I'd like to play in. But not all of the Players were committed to that--at least, that what it sounds like to me. Chris (Bankuei) has it, I think. I like his advice. You don't want to over-analyze things with your group, but at the same time, you want to make sure communication is occuring & everyone is on the same page. Instead of just polling us internet denizens on what makes a good Star Wars story, talk about with your group. See what gets them all jazzed & what doesn't.

That's a story in itself.  There are a few of my group that are willing to have that kind of discussion (the ones who are also in my Thursday game) but as to the rest, they're what Laws refers to as "casual gamers."  The casual gamers are just happy to be there, to have some cool setpieces, socialize, and play.  Every effort I've made to quiz them on deeper issues has resulted in shrugs of "I think the game is great.  /I'm having a good time/" and a level of distress at the thought that I might not be picking that up.

And as an aside: was it just me, or did Episode II (which I liked a whole hell of a lot) seem like a heavily railroaded RPG adventure? The GM, through the Jedi Council, tells PC Obi-Wan & PC Anikan "go here & do this". Obi-Wan goes & gets a bunch of clues, sends a message to the Council who (again, the GM) tell him, "Okay, now go here & do this."

Yeah, but I felt Episodes I, IV, and VI were like that, too, to be honest.

[Ian O'Rourke]

I think the level issue is a good one - I tend never to use levels as a gamist progression thing - I always tend to use them in one of two ways:

1) As Ron and a few others have mentioned as a dictator of the type of game you want to play - Spycraft uses this example as well.

2) For 'generation' type purposes. As an example, I am going to start them off at first level, but the campaign consists of 6 movies (each 2+ sessions) with the characters being about 1,3,6,9,12,15 in each over the course of about 18 years of time.

In the case (2) this allows the characters to change over time - Jedi's becoming masters, another becoming a Jedi Apprentice and so on.

[Eric J.]

Dang it! You make me so jealous! My first RPG was Star Wars D20, and I wish my first session went NEARLY that well. Even now, my players are a bunch of freaky munchkin freaks who boycott the game and each assert that they're a better GM than I am (who have never even tried).  {slams head against table}. Sorry, but I had to get that over with.  As an introduction I'd say that I'm the entire inverse of Valamir, as I had bought everything Star Wars D20 when it came out and now like WEGs Star Wars 500 times as much. Anyway: I believe that your troubles are due to player inexperience and will change as they become more accustomed to the RPG.  And about Star Wars being railroaded: I'd have to dissagree.  What if R2-D2, instead of being an NPC actually was a PC? You could look at it in two ways.  The first: It's an entire GM controlled environment that forced all of the main characters together, or a bizzare sequence of events that needed the GM touch, or fate, to force the plot to continue.