Multiple Character Sheets in the Core book of a game

[Leviathan]

Since joining this site, I have been reading a great deal of the older postings from many of the various areas of the Forum. Many ideas have occurred in these last few weeks that I had given little thought to before when I was working more or less independently on my game design. One aspect struck me that I thought I would share and see if anyone has had any experience with.
      I am curious if anyone has tried to release the book that includes the core rules of their game with multiple versions of the character sheet to suit the preferences of the players? I know that I have seen Core books with a character sheet and then later supplements with additional variations, but I have never run across a design that included more than one in a single volume.
      If such a design exists, I would be interested in looking at how that was received by the players who used the game. I am not sure if it would be helpful, or just a use of extra pages that would be largely ignored. I know several of the older posts have gone over the idea that some people prefer shorter or longer character sheets and how they preferred the information to be organized.

      Just to be sure it is clear, the questions are:
1) Has anyone seen or created a game with multiple character sheet formats in a single game and if so, what was the game?
2) If such a game exists/existed, how was it received by players?

[Giacomo]

{I am curious if anyone has tried to release the book that includes the core rules of their game with multiple versions of the character sheet to suit the preferences of the players?}

I personally don't know of any game released with multiple versions of the character sheet.  (Unless you have different quick start templates or Archtypes, as in WEG's Star Wars RPG or the various releases of Shadowrun).  It wouldn't really work well, especially with a new game, since each player is different, and in a brand new game people wouldn't know enough about it to have a "preference".

Including one basic character sheet is easier, and less time consuming, plus it gives you the option to release different character sheets as a separate product (as WOTC has with D&D 3.X).

[Leviathan]

The primary reason I brought the topic up was that I have an idea in my mind about how I would like the character sheet to go for the game I am working on, but realized that because it is a multiple sheet setup, there would be a significant number of people who might desire a single-sheet short version as an option. It wouldn't have anything but the raw numbers on it, but if combined with regular lined paper would be acceptable.
       The numbers are not the primary aspect of the game I am planning, but they are still important. For someone newer to the game especially, the longer sheet would be most helpful on clarity. Then again, most players who are experienced and dislike multiple sheets could just make their own sheets I suppose. Even so, I am still interested in seeing any examples of a release with more than one PC sheet style involved in the core book.
       As for the endless variable sheets, those sort of got old for me with WW and D&D. Most of them had almost the exact same information in the same setup, just a different word here or there.

[Giacomo]

Personally I would see if I could some how combine the two.  One thing that puts ME off a game is an overly complicated looking character sheet.  I tend to feel that if the character sheet is too involved, then the character generation process must be just as (if not more) complicated.

IMHO if you think you need more than 2 pages of info (one front one back) on your character sheet to make it easy to use, then you may want to re-visit your rules and see what you can trim down. Make sure the players really NEED all that info.  But then I have no clue what your game is about or what your rule set looks like, so I'm just going off of personal preference :)

[nystul]

You could offer variants as free pdf downloads.

[David Artman]

IIRC, Champions v3 or v4 did this. Their system is so configurable that it all-but-required different sheets for Hero-level versus Champion-level, for lots of custom powers versus a proscribed list, and for how much rule detail was needed on the sheet (both because of player experience and because of the relative commonality of a given rule's usage in a game).

I certainly don't think it would be a PROBLEM if a game had more than one sheet--in particular if your manuscript is one or two sheets short of a signature, and you're going to end up with some blank pages anyway; offer it up! Better yet, have someone who knows the game fairly well provide a general layout, so that you get a different perspective on priorities and space. You can still stylize it to be "of a piece" with the rest of the book, of course.

As a place to begin this process of deciding what's needed and what's fluff, I offer the following (this is a springboard; every game will be different):

1) Single-sided, single-sheet - For players who don't sweat the details, and for NPCs that aren't fully fleshed out. Being single-sided makes for faster scanning (no need to flip), allows cheaper reproduction (an issue for some folks), and leaves the back side blank, to be used however the players see fit, with whatever level of detail, organization, or style they want.

2) Normal sheet - Tries to provide sufficient space for an experienced player to include all and only what most often matters to play. Two-sided, if necessary... and no more, as Giacomo says. Hmmm... though it would be interesting to see a legal-sized character sheet that folds in half, making four "faces" but with only two-sided reproduction. One should be able to do something in the game system with the physical nature of a "folio character sheet".... (FYI, folding sheets/cards are VERY common in LARPs, where a player will have public information they let anyone see and private information they hide inside the fold(s).)

3) Training sheet(s) - A Normal sheet which also provides critical rules, charts, and tables. Note that this sheet will be The Best for demoing your game at cons and in one shots; but it will also likely be more crowded as a result (again, OK for demos and short runs, because how much detail is really going to be developed, in one-shot?).

4) Mob sheet - The bare minimum number of fields to sufficiently describe a character, crammed onto a sheet such that the maximum number of characters/entities can be listed on each side.

5) Specialty sheet(s) - This would be things like Vehicle write-up sheets (Champions), Spell List sheets (D&D), Base/Castle sheets (Champions, D&D), and any other sheet that a particular type/role of character might need, but the other character types/roles would not. In Champions, this is why they gave you sheets with a lot of space for Skills but little for Powers, and vice versa.

And there's probably more general structures, in theory (more ideas, anyone?).
Hope this helps;
David

[Justin D. Jacobson]

If you're talking about a print product, I would definitely only include a single version of a character sheet (the one I thought was best, natch). More than that, and I think most people will think the space could have been better spent on something else. If you're talking pdf product, obviously it's not as big of a concern. In any case, you can offer alternate sheets on your website.

(By way of example, Passages is 6x9. On our site, I also offer an 8.5x11 sheet for download.)

[btrc]

In EABA, I included half a dozen versions of the character sheets, with different fronts and backs that were slanted towards different types of characters or use of particular optional rules. Those with more room for character traits, gear, paranormal powers, etc. One with common game tables in condensed form, stuff like that. I haven't really gotten much feedback on it either way, but I can't imagine people are annoyed to have more choice.

Also, in some of the EABA sourcebooks I have included alternate character sheets with a different graphic layout that is more suited to the "feel" of the gameworld.

Greg Porter
BTRC

[Leviathan]

I definitely like the idea of releasing varied PC sheets on the website for those who want something more specialized. As it stands, I can easily fit all of the important statistics onto a single page, but given the nature of the game, the statistics are not the focus, only the vehicle by which the players show growth of their characters and by what means they define in a numeric form the spoken values.
      I should probably give a little more information. This is to be a Multi-genre game set to be capable of adaptation to any world. I don't say Universal here, because I have intentions to include several specific worlds in the core book. Later books could expand on different worlds and ideas without need to adjust the sheet design. Technically it is a Universal system, but one which will not be left without setting for it's first book. Anyway, it is going to be a game where the accumulation of experience comes through the actions of the game. The mechanics automatically do most of the leveling for you, so all you have to worry about is playing the character.
      Much of the focus is on story flow and creating a sense of immersion, so I want to make sure the statistics are set up in a manner that most facilitates their usage without interupting that flow. Because of this, I have tinkered with formatting and flow a lot. In the end, I think two pages is the best way to go, both aesthetically and logically with the game. However, knowing how many people feel about it, I thought a no-frills version might also be included so that only the numeric values would have to be written down and many of the other aspects could just be scrawled on the back or on a separate sheet of paper.
      I hope this helps get a better idea of what I am thinking. Also, I am probably going to shoot for the 8.5 by 11 format or something similar. I haven't yet had much chance to review EABA, but intend to go hunting now to see if I can't find out more. I have only read a few reviews at this point and none of them have said anything one way or the other about the matter. Thank you for all of the input thus far.

[btrc]

You can get a free copy of the "quick start" version of EABA (called EABAlite) at RPGnow. It has one of the double-sided character sheets and a quick overview of the rules. That and any of the online reviews of the system should tell you anything you need to know about the system. I believe you can also get a free "player pack" of stuff from the EABA part of the BTRC site (www.btrc.net), which includes gear lists and blank sheets.

Greg
BTRC