Uglub, Gelure, and Sorcery

[Ace]

I agree with Lyrax. There is no reason whatsoever that he should be an elite fighter. On the other hand, I think he should be a real kickass sorcerer. Afterall, he needs to be more powerful than any sorcerer to keep them in line.
So he is probably a master demagog, leader and sorcerer. And if he is so powerful, then I think he might look down on mere metal weapons.

Hmm. I normally hate game fiction and am wary of being guilty of writing it but if I get a chance I will write up "Uglub and the choosing of the nine" in a few days.

I do havea reason for making Uggie a great warrior and wizard both. I promise it is  not just  to "make him uber" His polymath like compotence is very much a part of who he is.

As far as his Council of Nine, well I will get to them too.

BTW How did you guys like "The Hand" I figure those guys are elite fighters and nothing else. As befits the world they are in they aren't bedecked in magic items. I figure it is possible to harden armor with magic or to make blades sharp and strong but I also realize the combination of scultpture, growth and vison you use to do it isn't that easy

My guess "Spell of the Blade of Awe" is something like this

Spell of the Blade of Awe
Spell of Three
CTN 7 (formalized)- casting time 70seconds
T1, R1, V1, D0, L5
Vagaries:  Growth3, Sculptue3, Vision3
Instantaneous
Cast on a fine weapon this spell changes the molecular structure of a sword or other edged weapon to allow for a blade that is both impossibly sharp and strong.
The weapons ATN is reduced by 2 for the weapon quality and damage is increased by 2 because of the ease the weapon has in cutting though flesh or armor.

Note that these weapons are pretty rare as for most casters they require a spell pool of around 20 to cast without much risk of aging.

I figure the Uglub himself, The Council of Nine and a handfull of the most imporatant officers in the Hand may have one.

The rest of The Hand proabably has high quality weapons (reduce atn or dtn by2)

[Brian Leybourne]

My guess "Spell of the Blade of Awe" is something like this

Spell of the Blade of Awe
Spell of Three
CTN 7 (formalized)- casting time 70seconds
T1, R1, V1, D0, L5
Vagaries:  Growth3, Sculptue3, Vision3
Instantaneous
Cast on a fine weapon this spell changes the molecular structure of a sword or other edged weapon to allow for a blade that is both impossibly sharp and strong.
The weapons ATN is reduced by 2 for the weapon quality and damage is increased by 2 because of the ease the weapon has in cutting though flesh or armor.

Note that these weapons are pretty rare as for most casters they require a spell pool of around 20 to cast without much risk of aging.

Hmm... I think you mean CTN6, dont you? 1+1+1+(3+1+1) = 8, less 2 because it's formalised.

Other than that, looks good to me, although extremely powerful. I guess that's the point of magic in tRoS really, but still.. a CTN6 spell can be relatively easily cast with no aging with a pool of 14 or so dice, not difficult for a spell of three where you get your SP plus Art, and you can always drop the CTN with gestures and/or chanting etc.

I guess IMO tRoS magic is the "other type" as outlined by Jake the other day - I would require a duration component for this spell, and at the end of the duration the metal returns to what it was before, unless you want to spend a point of SP to make it permanent. Your milage may vary of course, I just think magic is powerful enough without making it even easier, so in my games all magical effects try to reverse themselves eventually to return to the "status quo" unless some portion of the mages life force is used to "tie off reality" and make them permanent.

On top of all that, -2 ATN and +2 damage seems overly powerful to me, I would probably make it -1/+1 instead, that's still a MASSIVE bonus.

Brian.

[Jake Norwood]

I still want to see more alternate stats for ol' Uggie, but I'm also very curious as to what you all think his History is. The Hardarad bit got me thinking on "what is Uglub's History?" It' left pretty ambiguous in the book (intentionally). I've got my own ideas, of course, but many of yours are more fun. Spice of life, I guess.

Jake

[Ace]

My guess "Spell of the Blade of Awe" is something like this

Spell of the Blade of Awe
Spell of Three
CTN 7 (formalized)- casting time 70seconds
T1, R1, V1, D0, L5
Vagaries:  Growth3, Sculptue3, Vision3
Instantaneous
Cast on a fine weapon this spell changes the molecular structure of a sword or other edged weapon to allow for a blade that is both impossibly sharp and strong.
The weapons ATN is reduced by 2 for the weapon quality and damage is increased by 2 because of the ease the weapon has in cutting though flesh or armor.

Note that these weapons are pretty rare as for most casters they require a spell pool of around 20 to cast without much risk of aging.

Hmm... I think you mean CTN6, dont you? 1+1+1+(3+1+1) = 8, less 2 because it's formalised.

Other than that, looks good to me, although extremely powerful. I guess that's the point of magic in tRoS really, but still.. a CTN6 spell can be relatively easily cast with no aging with a pool of 14 or so dice, not difficult for a spell of three where you get your SP plus Art, and you can always drop the CTN with gestures and/or chanting etc.

I guess IMO tRoS magic is the "other type" as outlined by Jake the other day - I would require a duration component for this spell, and at the end of the duration the metal returns to what it was before, unless you want to spend a point of SP to make it permanent. Your milage may vary of course, I just think magic is powerful enough without making it even easier, so in my games all magical effects try to reverse themselves eventually to return to the "status quo" unless some portion of the mages life force is used to "tie off reality" and make them permanent.

On top of all that, -2 ATN and +2 damage seems overly powerful to me, I would probably make it -1/+1 instead, that's still a MASSIVE bonus.

Brian.

DOH I miscalculated the CTN by 1, Ah well...

As for the duration of the spell if you look at the requirements of the spell they are pretty sever, 3 seperate vagaries at maximum level. IMO thats pretty high. The reason I have it as it does is because it is rearranging the molecular strucute of the blade into a near perfect form.

Basically you take the Weyerth equivilant of Wootz steel, magically and Instantly  fold it with force and efficiency that even a modern metal press couldn't do.
When completed the weapon will be perfectly strong and flexible and have a nearly unbreakable edge.

It slices it dices just look at that tomato, you could cut plate armor with it but you wouldn't want to :)

Also a standard "high quality weapon" reduces ATN by 1 automatically. So the spell isn't quite as bad as it seems.

[Brian Leybourne]

Basically you take the Weyerth equivilant of Wootz steel, magically and Instantly  fold it with force and efficiency that even a modern metal press couldn't do.
When completed the weapon will be perfectly strong and flexible and have a nearly unbreakable edge.

It slices it dices just look at that tomato, you could cut plate armor with it but you wouldn't want to :)

Also a standard "high quality weapon" reduces ATN by 1 automatically. So the spell isn't quite as bad as it seems.

All good points. As a GM, however, I wince at the possibility that a starting mage (ok, 9 points of vagaries is high, but not completely unlikely) could spend a day per character casting this spell as a ritual, using gestures, chanting, meditation etc, basically guaranteeing success and no aging, and suddenly every character in the party has a -2ATN, +2 Damage sword permanently.

Power gaming or not, why WOULDN'T they do it. That makes a 2-handed longsword ATN4 for cutting attacks, and doing Str+4+successes damage. It's just too good. Make it not permanent, and suddenly it's not quite as cushy (but still very nice).

All IMO and YMMV of course.

Brian.

[Ace]

Basically you take the Weyerth equivilant of Wootz steel, magically and Instantly  fold it with force and efficiency that even a modern metal press couldn't do.
When completed the weapon will be perfectly strong and flexible and have a nearly unbreakable edge.

It slices it dices just look at that tomato, you could cut plate armor with it but you wouldn't want to :)

Also a standard "high quality weapon" reduces ATN by 1 automatically. So the spell isn't quite as bad as it seems.

All good points. As a GM, however, I wince at the possibility that a starting mage (ok, 9 points of vagaries is high, but not completely unlikely) could spend a day per character casting this spell as a ritual, using gestures, chanting, meditation etc, basically guaranteeing success and no aging, and suddenly every character in the party has a -2ATN, +2 Damage sword permanently.

Power gaming or not, why WOULDN'T they do it. That makes a 2-handed longsword ATN4 for cutting attacks, and doing Str+4+successes damage. It's just too good. Make it not permanent, and suddenly it's not quite as cushy (but still very nice).

All IMO and YMMV of course.

Brian.

I understand how you feel about that, there is always "Munchkin Bait" fear OTOH how many Sorcerers are there, 1 per 100, 000 folks?

A lot of them don't have the talent to pull of a spell like that if the players are openminded/lucky enough to have a Sorcerer friend than they deserve what advantage they can get.

I can see making the spell "Semi Permenant" though, when the weapons get worn, beat up, nicked it loses some of the bonus. That might work pretty well

Just to stir the pot here is the Armor version of the spell

Armor of Champions
Spell of Three
CTN 6 (formalized)- casting time 70seconds
T1, R1, V1, D0, L5
Vagaries: Growth3, Sculpture3, Vision3
Instantaneous
Cast on plate armor this spell changes the molecular structure of the metal to allow the steel to become both astoundingly strong and flexible as it molds to the wearer.
The intended wearer of the armor must be present and wearing the armor at the time of casting .
The weapons AV is increased by 2 and the cp loss is decreased by1 over  any bonus due to armor construction and materials

[Lyrax]

First order of business: That spell.  Think about it.  Either the sorceror would have to "hold" the spell (temporarily losing dice), would have to give it a duration (raising CTN drastically) or would have to settle for an instantaneous version.  The problem with the instantaneous version, as I see it, is that the blade would (very) quickly lose its superior sharpness through normal wear and tear (of transporting the weapon and such).  Also, such a weapon might be impossible to keep inside a sheath, as it would slice its way out.  That's an interesting roleplaying challenge, especially with, say, a greatsword.

Also, the bonus of -2/+2 is WAY too much.  Perhaps a -1 across the TN board and a +1 to thrusting damage (still a massive bonus, but much less so) would be in order.

Second: The "Hand" units.  Shweet, but I think you could go much further with this, and blend it into warrior ranks.  Arm might designate a deadly swordsmaster, who has risen to the top by much bloodshed in battlefields and dueling fields, whereas the nail would be the title given to the wimp recruited yesterday.  Play with it.

Stats for Uglub, as I see it:
Str: 5
AG: 6
TO: 5
EN: 5
HT: 4
WP: 7
WT: 6
MA: 6
Soc: 8
Per: 6

Skills: Ritualist, Soldier, Courtier at 5 or 6, all "people" skills at SR 2 or 1

Proficiencies: Cut & Thrust, negligible compared to the bodyguards he keeps specifically for such purposes.

Vagaries: all at 3.

SP: 17

Guardians of note: One loyal Wizard, known only as "Grakhnesh."  All rolls concerning his betrayal are made with his 6 will power dice at a TN of 4 or less.  Rumors abound of his origin, some as outlandish as to say that he is a demon, bound to Uglub's Service.  Others say the he was saved from the Inquisition as a boy by Uglub.

[Jake Norwood]

This is just my opinion, but I disagree that the sword spell would have to be held. That falls under the "permanent effects" clause to me, though I agree with Lance that +2/-2 is a bit much (in which case I might require something like that be held up). But magic is powerful, and there's no reason to start trying to put all kinds of artificial "balances" on it.

Again, that isn't TROS doctrine, it's just my take.

Jake

[Jaif]

RE: The -2/+2

I too think the -2/+2 is way out of line.  However, I wouldn't mind it being a permanent effect.  The way I would handle it is:

a) The sorcerer makes the sword sharper & tougher by removing invisible imperfections from the blade. +1 to damage.

b) The sorcerer tries to change the blade to improve its balance and otherwise customize it for an individual.  +1 to damage, sorc rolls a blacksmith roll.  If the roll succeeds, then -1 TN for that individual.  If the roll fails, nothing.  If the roll is fumbled, then the sword is ruined somehow.  In case of failure, no further attempts by that sorcerer are allowed until the blacksmith skill increases.  For fumbles, no sorcerer can attempt to fix the sword, it needs to be melted down.

c) A sword effected by (a) is a nice sword, and any decent smith will recognize it on inspection and ask questions (like where it was bought, who forged it, etc..)  A sword affected by (b) would have some other tell-tale effect.  For example, it's been changed so much that it's very obvious that nobody could forge such a sword: it's very shape is impossible to acheive with medieval techniques.  That sword's going to draw attention.

In summary, I'd lesson the bonuses, add an element of skill & risk, and leave side-effects rather than just a free "-1/+1".

RE: Uggie the Barbarian

Uggie is drawn as a pretty tough guy on pg 158.  I know it's not canon, but it is a source.

RE: Old Harald

Thanks for the HH rehash.  I remember reading his story before, but couldn't remember the cool details.  Great ol' Alex was also a badass, btw.  Of course, punishing his troops by marching them through a desert wasn't the brightest move. <g>

-Jeff

P.S. There are many other side-effects possible.  What if the change that makes the sword more useful also makes it more likely to break?  The sword breaks if the owner fumbles, or some such.

P.P.S. When I say "any decent smith will ask", I don't mean that literally.  It's the type of thing that a professional is likely to notice, and be curious about.

[Jake Norwood]

Now this is really gonna get you guys. The winged fellow on p. 124...that's Sengir, Uglub's junior. In fact, if you look through the book a bit, there are more shots of Uglub and Sengir than any other one person (with the exception of a guy named Gambin, who appears alot in Book 6, I think). Chew on that for a while.

Jake

[Ace]

RE: The -2/+2

I too think the -2/+2 is way out of line.  However, I wouldn't mind it being a permanent effect.  The way I would handle it is:

a) The sorcerer makes the sword sharper & tougher by removing invisible imperfections from the blade. +1 to damage.

b) The sorcerer tries to change the blade to improve its balance and otherwise customize it for an individual.  +1 to damage, sorc rolls a blacksmith roll.  If the roll succeeds, then -1 TN for that individual.  If the roll fails, nothing.  If the roll is fumbled, then the sword is ruined somehow.  In case of failure, no further attempts by that sorcerer are allowed until the blacksmith skill increases.  For fumbles, no sorcerer can attempt to fix the sword, it needs to be melted down.

c) A sword effected by (a) is a nice sword, and any decent smith will recognize it on inspection and ask questions (like where it was bought, who forged it, etc..)  A sword affected by (b) would have some other tell-tale effect.  For example, it's been changed so much that it's very obvious that nobody could forge such a sword: it's very shape is impossible to acheive with medieval techniques.  That sword's going to draw attention.

In summary, I'd lesson the bonuses, add an element of skill & risk, and leave side-effects rather than just a free "-1/+1".


-Jeff

P.

You guys are thinking game balance a little too  much IMO.

Riddle of Steel magic is really powerfull more so than any systen except Mage IMO

After all a begining Sorcerer can, with a little risk, force most people to kill themself with a short phrase!
And the spell to do it is a spell of one, CTN7 Suicide (page 133) and it requires only a single vagary at 2!

The reason I have the spell written with the vision vagary at 3 is because allows the caster to "know" when the sword is ready and to work on the molecular level.

This spell shouldn't be thought of as "Create +1 weapon" or "Bladesharp" but as forge molecularly perfect sword.

The sword created by that magic really is utterly perfect as a steel wepon can be. . The molecular configuration of the edge and blade makes it really difficult to blunt and allows the sword to retain that sharpness while cleaving other material (like normal steel).

I would guess the effect is "semi permanent".   Even a monomolecular blade may wear someday. In that case recast the spell every 3-5 years or so if it is used heavily.

I do agree with you Jaif that the sword would attract a bit of attention of flashed about or shown off but if the PC's are discrete no one need know it is forged by magic.

BTW I don't figure the bonuses in my spell are cumulative with workmanship BTW.

[Jaif]

You guys are thinking game balance a little too much IMO.

Guilty as charged.  I keep hearing the words "buff" and "debuff" running around my noggin.  However, that's not the primary cause for my concern.

It's this: you're using "molecular composition" as a vague catch-all for adding a bunch of bonuses to a weapon, and I don't think it works quite that way.  A rapier has a TN of 5 not because of superior composition, but because it's shape and weight are a great design.  Sure, making it tougher's gonna help, but I don't think the TN is really going to be affected.

In fact, I would argue that once you get a weapon to a certain size, quality, etc, then there isn't much more you can do to increase its effectiveness in a single combat.  Is it sharp enough to do the job? Then that's all you need.

Finally, I think you missed one point I made.  It's one thing to sharpen an edge; it's another to design a sword that has a superior TN.  That's why I want my sorc to be a swordsmith if he tries that.  Sure, he can remove imperfections and create a strong steel sword, but designing it to be easier to use is a different task, and requires skill.

-Jeff

[Ace]

You guys are thinking game balance a little too much IMO.

Guilty as charged.  I keep hearing the words "buff" and "debuff" running around my noggin.  However, that's not the primary cause for my concern.

It's this: you're using "molecular composition" as a vague catch-all for adding a bunch of bonuses to a weapon, and I don't think it works quite that way.  A rapier has a TN of 5 not because of superior composition, but because it's shape and weight are a great design.  Sure, making it tougher's gonna help, but I don't think the TN is really going to be affected.

In fact, I would argue that once you get a weapon to a certain size, quality, etc, then there isn't much more you can do to increase its effectiveness in a single combat.  Is it sharp enough to do the job? Then that's all you need.

Finally, I think you missed one point I made.  It's one thing to sharpen an edge; it's another to design a sword that has a superior TN.  That's why I want my sorc to be a swordsmith if he tries that.  Sure, he can remove imperfections and create a strong steel sword, but designing it to be easier to use is a different task, and requires skill.

-Jeff

I definetly appreciate the requirement that the Sorcerer be a swordsmith. This makes a good deal of sense to me as well.

BTW I was imagining this spell gives the weapon an edge as sharp as a diamond knife and nearly unbreakable that wht I have the bonuses as they are
Maybe -2 on atn is a little much for just the one spell though

What you suggested might work, the spell could be cast twice each giving +1 to damege.

the imperfection removal you suggested giving +1 damage. This requires no skill.

A second casting can change the metal to something incredibly flexible and sharp giving +1, but to cast this the user must be a smith

If you want a better balanced weapon you would need a spell like "Blade and Hand in accord" which reduces atn by 1

To exceed the damage as listed make the spell a Ritual spell and a movement component. This would allow you to make "Monomolecular" style blades. with a movement vagary you could make blades that modern science could not.

Stuff like Unbreakable swords with an edge as sharp as a diamond knife and neat stuff like that.

[Jake Norwood]

I'm glad that you brought up the issue of flexibility. One of the things that separate good european swords (I'm not talking about wall-hanger trash) from katanas and the like is the blade geometry and flexibility issue. Euro swords were very flexible, making them not only resilient but also good for parrying and defense. Katana's are stiff, with soft metal along the false to help absorb shock, but not flexible. They have incredibly sharp blades (overkill against flesh, in truth), but are brittle compared to a Euro sword. So if you've got this legendarily hard, sharp edge you're also going to have to worry about it's ATN. Maybe it won't be brittle due to magic (I doubt it, but hey, it's magic!), but it will be deficient as a parrying weapon.

Jake

[Ace]

I'm glad that you brought up the issue of flexibility. One of the things that separate good european swords (I'm not talking about wall-hanger trash) from katanas and the like is the blade geometry and flexibility issue. Euro swords were very flexible, making them not only resilient but also good for parrying and defense. Katana's are stiff, with soft metal along the false to help absorb shock, but not flexible. They have incredibly sharp blades (overkill against flesh, in truth), but are brittle compared to a Euro sword. So if you've got this legendarily hard, sharp edge you're also going to have to worry about it's ATN. Maybe it won't be brittle due to magic (I doubt it, but hey, it's magic!), but it will be deficient as a parrying weapon.

Jake

Good point Jake. I am afraid this thread is on a tangent right now but at least it is interesting :)

I figure with the right vagaries it might be possible to combine super sharp lasting edges with incredible flexibility and get a "super sword" I figure all those vagaries allow molecular rearrangement and essentially you have a "Nano Blade" more or less