All right, I'm a believer.

[Bob Richter]

Armor is as much a plague as a boon. It drains your combat pool, which increases his chance for a devastating success.

Ever actually had a duel in tRoS? If so, you wouldn't make that statement. Losing 5 from your CP to gain 5-6 automatic successes on every defense (instead of spending those 5 dice on one defense per round and getting maybe 3 successes) is a MASSIVE bonus. Just massive.

I have had lots of duels between 2 characters, one with a 12 point pool and no armour and the other with a 7 point pool and full plate everywhere, and I'll tell you - it is INCREDIBLY tense, nervesome and scary for the unarmored guy, 5 more dice in his pool or not. And even when he does hit, he almost never wounds the opponent, because he can't go full out for fear of draining his pool and being attacked back - in this situation the 12 pool guy has to make SURE he keeps initiative, because one "nick" and he's in serious smeg.

Do NOT underestimate armour. It is huge.

Brian.

Armor doesn't get you any automatic defense successes, any more than toughness does. Basically it drains your combat pool to increase your TO, meaning that, while you can be beat on longer, you've no realistic hope of taking the initiative.

From seeing what a guy with a 13 CP can do to a much tougher guy with a 10 CP, I'm pretty sure I'd still bet on the guy with a 12 CP.

[Lance D. Allen]

Here's a consideration that I think some people have missed... You don't HAVE to defend if you don't have initiative. Only on the first round after throwing initiative (if you throw white) are you constrained in any way to defend. It is quite possible (but rarely wise) to attack when you do not have the initiative. If you are heavily armored, taking this chance might be worthwhile, esp. if your opponent throws a fairly conservative attack roll.

My character wears fairly light armor (ie, the heaviest he can without losing CP) and fights fairly conservatively. However, he is considerably less likely to be so conservative if the attack is obviously to his torso, as he is nicely (AV 4) armored there. (hence the value of feints..)

That aside, Bob is correct when he says "Armor doesn't get you any automatic defense successes, any more than toughness does..." You cannot take the initiative by getting beat on but absorbing it through armor and TO. However, due to this added security, you can take a few more risks than your unarmored foe, which CAN get you the initiative.

[Jaif]

Here's a consideration that I think some people have missed... You don't HAVE to defend if you don't have initiative.

I didn't know that...simultaneous block & strike just went up the charts!

Frankly, I do have to wonder about that.  Consider - it's the 2nd round of the fight: the guy w/the initiative uses half his dice in a basic attack.  The defender goes for broke, and uses all but 1 of his dice in a simultaneous block & strike.  Depending on the armor situation, you could really kick some ass that way.

As for the rest, I do find armor is an advantage in the game.  I think the enc. penalty for armor in shields is a tad heavy, but not so heavy that it renders them ineffective.

My duels between unarmored & armored have gone the way Brian suggests.  If Mr. 12 dice does something radical like put 11 dice into an attack, than Mr 7 responds with 4.  If both are at CTNs of 6, then it's usually a 3-4 margin of success for Mr. 12, which is handily stopped by full plate armor, with a toughness point or 2 to spare.  (Obviously actual weapons and such make a large difference, which is why I stated early on (and still believe) that mass weapons are better than swords, but I digress.)  Anyway, Mr. 7's taken no damage, and can now respond w/3 dice vs Mr. 12's 1 die.

Obviously there are other situations, but it works out the same: the 12-dice guy has to be very, very careful or he'll lose the initiative.

Frankly, though, what I've learned is this: if you have good armor and a shield, and your opponent is lacking in either category you should almost always open w/an attack.  If both parties go red, do a simultaneous block & strike with a lot of dice.

-Jeff

[Jake Norwood]

I think the enc. penalty for armor in shields is a tad heavy, but not so heavy that it renders them ineffective.

This is true, but--because I'm just such a nice guy ;-) --I've significantly dropped the CP penalties for shields.

And, when the 2nd printing hits the press, I'll have pdfs or web pages detailing all of the (minor) changes.

Jake

[Bankuei]

From all of the actual gameplay I've seen, armor does save lives in TROS, against big and nasty weapons, and small and nasty weapons alike.  Certainly you might not get initiative, but with the opportunity to save a butt load of CP to throw at someone(2nd exchange, massive defense, get the initiative, next round, refresh, all out offense), you get a big advantage.  So far Armor has all but negated a few hits, possibly because the hits were only by a few successes, but everything counts.

Chris

[Shadow]

Jake wrote:

I don't thing that AG should be part of the TN--it's allready factored into everyone's combat pool, and therefore into the dice the defender used to evade/parry/whatever. What to base it on, however, is a good question. Although a "flat" TN, such as Shadow proposed, may not be the *most* accurate way to do it, it is functional.

I would actually drop the TN to 3. The kind of tip cuts that you, Bob, and others in your camp are looking for are really pretty darn rare. Even a 30% chance is cheating a weapon out of it's damage code. If you did keep the TN at 4 then I would ad 1 to the damage from all weapons. That makes the liklihood of these kinds of wounds proportional. On the flip side, if the chance is so small, is it really worth rolling, considering the slow-down it has on a game. I say "not really," but the real determiner here is "what kind of TROS game are you going for?"

Jake & all-

The TN of 3 seems workable to me (80% chance for each point of damage beyond the margin of success to score).  The point of the rule is to allow for occasional minor wounds (i.e., tipcuts) rather than to take away the power of the larger weapons.  The +1 damage /TN 4 would probably work about the same, but would entail some alteration to the damage tables so I would judge the TN 3 option more practical.

On the shields, I'm glad to hear they have been modified (reduced CP penalty).  I would like to see more on them in Flower of Battle (weapons catching in unrimmed shields, more on shield bash tactics, special utility vs. missile weapons & in battle, formations, etc).

On the armors, I've not playtested enough with the CP-reducing varieties enough to say much yet (damn work schedule...).  Maybe most edged strikes against plate and even chain should do blunt damage rather than actually cutting through it, and maybe edged weapons should have penalties vs. metal armor?  Just a thought at this point though.

Shadow

[Mokkurkalfe]

A simple way to do it would be like the thrust to the lower legs. If you get a, say, 8 or more on the (open) d6, then you just nick or scratch the other guy. All that's needed is one extra roll(sometimes) and the chance would be approximitely 14%.