Film vs. Novel as N-model

[Gordon C. Landis]

Over in RPG Theory, I read:

(This, by the way, works great for the introverted medium of the novel -- you create it alone, you consume it alone, and it's great for hanging out in the middle of a character's head while action happens somewhere out there.)

RPGs are more like dramatic narrative (film and theater) where character is revealed through action and intereaction with other people.

Clearly, Narrativism in GNS is more like film and theatre, at least in most discussions here.  But I've had a simmering thought that some Narrativist-leaning folks (in general, and in my play group) really have something more like a novel in mind as the target of their desired story-creation.  Is this a doomed endeavor?  What happens if you want a N-like-novel instead of an N-like-film from your play?  

One answer - "Valueless analogy - stupid rat, no cheese."  I'm thinking there *is* something here - and not just the "Sim as re-creation" thing - but I could be wrong.

Gordon[/quote]

[Christopher Kubasik]

Hi Gordon,

When I think of dramatic narrative, I think of character revealed through action and interaction with other characters.

When I think of novel, I think of a middle class invention of only reletively recent literary history that tends to a) catalogue the bricks and bracks of a particular culture, class, environment (anything from Edith Wharton, to Dickens, to Joyce, to William Gibson to Tolkien) b) involve the internal monologue of characters (anything from Joyce to Iris Murdoch to anybody more managable) c) involve not only the interactions of characters as the driving force of material, but usually involve a stormy, larger picture of a cast of society itself, with walk on parts to say, "Here it is, here we are, this is the people and land you're reading about!" (Joyce (again!), Dickens, William Gibson, Tolkien....)*

Note that no matter what the "genre" a really memorable novel does this in one degree to another.**

So.  That's what I suggest are the qualities of a novel.  But before we can address your question: What you mean by novel?

Because if you mean you want: an RPG session with a lot of focus on a) baubles b) internal thinking c) the sweep of a society -- yes, there may be problems.  But by god, it's a bright group here.  Solutions can be found.

Take care,
Christopher

*There are other qualities, of course -- literary style for example (which is quite varied even for quality work) and more.  These three qualities strike me as the key qualities that are part of what a novel is and will provide a challenge for translation to RPGs.

**I'll add that the "airplane novel" usually doesn't do these things (or doesn't do them well), but instead moves with the feel of a dramatic narrative, except typed out as prose.  It's like a screenplay, but too fat.  (For my taste.)

[edited to add footnotes: god help me]

[Gordon C. Landis]

So.  That's what I suggest are the qualities of a novel.  But before we can address your question: What you mean by novel?

Because if you mean you want: an RPG session with a lot of focus on a) baubles b) internal thinking c) the sweep of a society -- yes, there may be problems.  But by god, it's a bright group here.  Solutions can be found.

A quick answer here would be I mean by novel what most gamers mean - Tolkien, if you're lucky, and Brin, and Eddings, and Jordan, and Clancy, and King.  But . . . that's not all I mean.  So let me address the elements themselves:

"sweep of society" - That's an easy "Yes".
"internal thinking" - A problematic element indeed, and you're probably quite right to include it as one of the aspects of a novel that's HARD in an RPG.  I think some of the talk about "cool, but not in play"* comes from here - there is no easy way to emulate this in play, so folks do the "imagine how cool" thing.  So . . . a "Yes," with the difficulties (and needed clarifications) understood.
"baubles" - This one, I'm lost on.  What do you mean by baubles?  I'm not tying it to the rest of your post.

Maybe another way of asking the question - what is different about Novelistic Protagonism vs. Film Protagonism, and can that be related to GNS/RPGs? I'll try and check later on the bauble bit - and I, too, have a footnote :-)

* - Sorry for the shorthand - I'm about to head home and a footnote seems easier.  I'm refering to some recent discussions about how often what we think is neat about created characters, game world elements and the like only exist as we imagine them outside of play, not as anything that happens in play.

Gordon

[Christopher Kubasik]

Hi Gordon,

If you look at my first a, b, c listing, you'll see brickn'brack listed for a. That's baubles.  Swords with elaborate histories.  A complete catalogue of what is set out on dining table a high class family in 1910 New York.  A keen eye for fashion, tattoos, or keyboard consoles for cyberjocks.  (A movie will have this as part of the art direction, to fill out the world, "tag" characters and so on -- but only a clumsy movie would spend screen time detailing all this -- which is why Fellowship of the Ring is a good movie and many Tolkien fans are disappointed with it -- they would have been happy with a clumsy movie and Peter Jackson had the good sense not to deliver.)

****

I don't think the "sweep of society" is easy at all in an RPG. It requires, in a novel, hundreds of pages, devotion to a cast of a dozen or protagonists, and cross cutting between scenes and storylines that might  or might not come together.  (Examples: LotR, Neuromancer, Salem's Lot....)

I'd offer that to do this as an RPG you'd have to have multiple characters for players and play out parallel storylines.

This might be fun.  I think Ars Magica got the closest to this potential (though it wasn't the game's goal), with distinct social classes between Grogs, Comanions and Magi, as well, as unique potential for story setting (the council meeting, a day in the Grog House, a companion hosts a party at his villa and lots of social classes mingle with their own agenda and so on).

To do a novelistic treatment of this kind (a story that shows how the events of the tale refract through different classes, social strata and environments through parallel sub-stories) would be a) cool b) hefty in terms of game time committment c) demanding in terms of prep and in play focus.

For example, the Magi have a council and start on an adventure for a thingamabob.  Then we cut to the next session: the thingamabobin is a revered holy relic of a saint, and we discover a young boy is planning on stealing it to go directly to god -- and we play out that environment, using all the information made up / played out from the wizard stuff last week.  (A spin on the back and forth time stuff from S&Sword.)

****

Finally, You ask, "What is different about Novelistic Protagonism vs. Film Protagonism, and can that be related to GNS/RPGs?"

Well, aside from internal life from external action, and the protagonists being split up all over the place, nothing else comes immediately my mind.

But that's the question you have to answer first before we move on.  Until you do that, we don't know what qualities it is about the novel that you want to model in the first place. ; )

*****

So far, though, short of you adding more to the mix, certain strange options spring to mind....

Playing out all the histories of the swords as they're introduced (sub-stories again); players doing their characters thoughts as inner-monlogue riffs (it could be done; might be cool); or the multi-story, societial refraction as described above.

Or something else.

Take care,
Christopher

[Gordon C. Landis]

If you look at my first a, b, c listing, you'll see brickn'brack listed for a. That's baubles.

OK, now I get it.  And yes, I can see that as an important thing from novels that folks would want in novel-like Nar RPG play.  

Fellowship of the Ring - good example of movie vs. novel, and I agree with you regarding Mr. Jackson's wisdom.  I'm prone to quibble - another line or two about, say, the ruins at Weathertop, or to evoke just who/what Gandalf was and what his death means other than (paraphrase) "it's too sad for me to say" . . .   But that's the perfectionist fan-boy talkin' - and he's got two more movies to work with.

"sweep of society" - not "easy" as in "easy to do", easy as in "easy to say that's something folks would want".  Your solutions sound interesting and quite do-able, though I see that "railroading" spectre looming.

But that's the question you have to answer first before we move on.  Until you do that, we don't know what qualities it is about the novel that you want to model in the first place. ; )

Understand, I'm kinda trying this idea on as a possible explanation of why folks (including, but not limited to, some of those I play with) who seem predisposed to a lot of Narrativist concerns none the less get real nervous about (e.g.) single clearly stated and shared Premise,  scene-based resolution, and Kickers.  That said (jumping back to an earler quote):

To do a novelistic treatment of this kind (a story that shows how the events of the tale refract through different classes, social strata and environments through parallel sub-stories) would be a) cool b) hefty in terms of game time committment c) demanding in terms of prep and in play focus.

I think this is a very good description of the desired outcome of my group in their grand "fantasy campaign" mode.  We got close in a Talislanta Subman/slavery-related game.  We're tackling it again right now in Dark Sun Yaramuk.  I'll confirm a, b, and c here without question, and add d) it can be a frustratingly hit-and-miss mode.  Like some novels . . .

I've a feeling I'll be coming back to this after next Saturday's play session.  In the meantime - anyone else have thoughts about novel as model for Nar play?  I want to repeat I actually don't have a clear line of reasoning here, just a possibly-promising lead.

Gordon

[Gordon C. Landis]

I had an RPG-filled weekend, including some discussion of this "novel" issue.  I think I may have an answer to Christopher's question about what "qualities" I'm looking for . . .  though "looking for" isn't exactly the right phrase.  Maybe "wondering about the issues around" is the way to put it.

In any case, the quality we identified was "pacing".  The "sweep of a society" thing was even more important to folks than I thought it would be, and there was a percieved-as-unbreakable link between that and a certain slow Pace, a measured progress of play, where some events are NOT immediately seen (by the players - no character knowledge issues here) as Premise-related.  I'm confident from observable evidence as well as conversation that we're not talking GM-Railroaded story here- it is story-in-play, but maybe . . . not story-RIGHT-now?  Story partly developed now, with ultimate resolution deferred?  

So that's a focus, if folks are inclined - existing Narrativist discussion and tools lend themselves to movie-like stories, but perhaps not a slower, novel-like pace.  Therfore, if that slow pacing is important to you (which is clearly the case for my group), and you have Nar goals . . . what're some good ideas?  

Gordon

PS - I'm not sure this pacing issue is as big a deal for me as it is for others in my group, which would explain my infrequent-GMing situation over the last few years, and *I* am open to the idea that the perceived-neccessity of a certain pace is only a perception, not a fact.  But for now, I'm willing to assume it's a requirement - what are the consequences in GNS, particularly for N?

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

I'm pretty satisfied that our play of Hero Wars qualifies as a novel, either composed of three tightly-linked novellas or just as one biggie. Check out some of the threads in the Hero Wars forum and see what you think.

I agree about the pacing issue, but I think what really matters is that the problems faced by people in Glorantha are simply too hefty to be resolved in short stories. You could have a pretty good character-portrait type of short story, or what might be thought of as a "Human interest short" by leaving the Big Premise pretty much untouched, but if you want to ... well, do Glorantha in any way that gets at the Premise(s) offered by the setting, then I think it's gonna take a fair number of sessions.

And I specifically say that in full knowledge that resolution in Hero Wars is potentially very, very fast. Wanna resolve a week-long battle? Roll, roll. Spend any Hero Points? Yes? No? OK, all done. There are permutations that can lengthen it, but really, when desired, it is that fast.

The main reason why multiple sessions become necessary for this game is that the Premise may be addressed multiple times, with multiple tweaks or permutations. Oh, Chaos is bad, so we'll fight and kill these broos. Rah! But next story, the Lunar priestess is really helping this tribe, and shock - she's doing it by colluding with the broos. Damn, what now? The setting is built, in my opinion, to be a fascinating cascade of ever-deepening "Yes but" questions/statements. A conflict embedded in only one level of one question is fine, and it might be resolved, but it leaves (in my experience) a strong hunger for more, a sense that a bigger and unified story could be built by turning the situation upside down and trying it again.

Sorcerer also lends itself to novel-orientations, only from the character angle rather than the setting one. In this case, it's a matter of how much depth one wants to build into aspects of the back-story implicit in "sorcery" as a concept - the more aspects & the more depths, the more a character's permutation of the basic Sorcerer Premise can find ways of being challenged, invoked, and even altered.

I don't know of anyone besides me who has GM'd large-bore, hard-core Narrativist play for years at a time, using the same system, same characters, building a whomper of a story. I've done it lots, to varying degrees of success.

At this point, I don't see any reason why people would think the techniques are "short game" oriented - except perhaps that they are used to thinking about "never-resolving, never-ending, kinda wandering" play as the only means to long-term play.

Best,
Ron