questions on level ups and atmosphere

[TheMadman]

Hey there! I just discovered this site a few days ago and i'm still amazed by all the good stuff to read here. I'm  from Quebec, Canada. I'm a french canadian with a far from perfect english so don't mind all the errors. I've been into rpg for about 15years now. So far the only games I designed were for "live action rpgs" (not sure if that's how you call them in english). A few months ago a friend and me had a series of discussions on P&P rpg's combat system in general. These discussions led to us building a combat system.  We had fun playtesting the combat system and now we'd like to expand it from combat system, to "full rpg".

What is "Realm of the Powerful Goblin" (aka R.P.G.) about?. Simply put it's about fighting techniques (special fighting moves). characters fight monsters to get "loots" (skins, bones, teeth, etc). As there is no money in our world, they trade those in exchange for training to gain new fighting techniques. Our character's basic stats are about those special moves. Each moves have prerequisite in strength and/or dexterity. Endurance help you use those moves without getting tired too fast, and intelligence reflects how good you are at understanding what you are taught. When you level, you get more points to put into str,dex, end, int allowing you to learn better fighting techniques or helping you use them. We don't make differences for weapon types and we don't have magical weapons or items. What makes you a different fighter is what fighting techniques you learn and how you develop/improve them.

There are two things we're having problems with right now.

1) level ups. We know what happens when a character level up, but we don't know "when" that character will level. I don't like experience points cause I hate counting them when i'm the DM and I always end up saying: "How much do you guys need to lvl?  Oh. ok, then you get 2500 each". I thought maybe if you finish a quest/adventure then you level.  But it looks to simple. Maybe the characters needs to make some offerings to some spirits/gods and they receive more power? Maybe it's some kind of training they pay to take that gives them the level. Any other suggestions?

2) When we first playtested it (basically just testing the combat system) something strange happened. Maybe because nobody took it very seriously, but most of the characters (and npcs) that night ended up as total crackpots. They were throwing jokes, they were making "in game" comments/jokes about the flaws in the system and the story (it was an improvised game in an improvised setting). The game reminded me of Dragonball in some ways (training, fighting with special moves, comedy). I'd like to keep that "crazy" atmosphere, maybe find a way to reward it. Now, how do I get the players attention/engagement/participation while not making it too "serious". I mean, if they sincerely care about what's happening in the game, won't the comedy turn into drama?  Any thoughts on that?

I hope this was neither too long or too hard to decipher   =)

[Kashell]

First of all, Welcome to the Forge!

One thing you always need to consider when creating an RPG is who your audience is. If you're just making a game for you and your friends, then perfect! You know your audience very well, and you can directly tailor your game just for fun.

Maybe the characters needs to make some offerings to some spirits/gods and they receive more power? Maybe it's some kind of training they pay to take that gives them the level. Any other suggestions?

Well, in truth, a "level up" system is about whatever is fun. Unless you're going for a really balanced environment, you can make leveling up completely standardized too. (If you ever played Final Fantasy Tactics, you know that every single level only requires 100 xp. There isn't an increased difficulty in leveling up at all.) If you're really clever, you can even make systems that have no levels at all. Again, in the end, it's whatever is most fun in your system.

'd like to keep that "crazy" atmosphere, maybe find a way to reward it.

Well, I think you just answered your own question here. Don't fix what isn't broken. Figure out why the system is comedic and fun, and then add to that, I mean, if that's what you're going for anyway.

[Simon_Pettersson]

Personally, I hate level systems, but that's really just my opinion. But if you think it's messy keeping track of how many XP to give people, just skip the levels, I say. The two easiest ways of handling experience gain is, to me:

1) Make the characters improve in the skills and attributes they use, or
2) Give out some improvement points at the end of the session, to buy up their attributes and skills.

The first one is pretty simple. Put a checkbox at every skill and attribute (and special move, if that's how your system works), and tell the players to check it when they use the skill for the first time in a session. Then at the end, you can give them an "improvement roll", for example. In a "roll under" system, an improvement roll could simply be "if you roll equal to or over your stat, it increases one point". If that's too slow, maybe just improve every stat used in a session at the end of the game.

Number two is even simpler. Give the players some points at the end of the session, and let them buy up their stats for them. This gives more freedom to the character's development, but one can get somewhat "unrealistic" results, such as getting better at swordfighting when one has been using the Sneak skill to get around the monsters the entire game. But then again, the level system has the same unrealisticness without adding the measure of freedom to tailor one's character the way this does. It also has the advantage in that it allows the GM to reward "appropriate" behaviour, just as you were looking to do. So, you write down in your book that a player who has made the entire group laugh whilst still acting in character, should get an improvement point.

A combination of the two is also a workable idea, i.e. tick the checkbox of the skills you use, then use the improvement points to increase them. This allows for greater freedom than the first one, whilst avoiding the unrealisticness of the second one. And you can control how quickly you want the characters to improve by giving suggestions on the appropriate number of improvement points the GM should give out.

Good luck with the game!

[Matt Machell]

Hi there, do you have a name we can use? Folks tend to use real names rather than handles round here.

What I'd suggest is that you think about the main things your game is about, and tie the character's facility to change to that. Ok that probably needs some explanation. You mention your game is about acquiring loot and using it to get the cool techniques, right? It sounds to me like you have a nice cycle right there. Just make the "leveling' another kind of technique. So your gamecycle might look like this (at a very abstract level):

Character fights monster > Gets Loot > Takes loot to Teacher (or spirit...) > Gets Advance >
        ^                                    <                         <                                               <

There's no need for experience, since the loot effectively has that role anyway. You then get to build in whatever setting colour you wish about why the teachers want loot or the deaths of monsters...

-Matt

[TonyLB]

My intuition is that you'll have a much easier time of a lot of stuff if there is an in-character reason for the characters to want power, power, power.  People bandy about the term "crucible" here ... something that contains folks and pushes them up against their own problems in such a way that they can't avoid it.  I think that's what I see lacking here.  I don't get a sense of the huge downside of not getting more powerful.

Whereas in (say) Naruto I can look and immediately see "Oh ... yeah ... Sasuke's facing Gaara in a month, so if he doesn't train his butt off then he's going to get ripped to shreds."  That's the crucible.

Once that's in place, I'd look at the question of levelling up within that context.  Does levelling up happen in the privacy of your training room?  Or does it happen at a critical moment during the fight itself?  Does it happen because of your practical experience, or because of your internal struggle, or because of how much loot you've got, or because of insight into the nature of the game-world, or because you solve a GM riddle, or what?

I'd take a look at the option of letting your players decide when they level up.  It makes everything so much simpler for the GM.  He just doesn't have to deal with the question.  If you want to do that and still maintain a sense of challenge then you should add some serious disadvantages to levelling up.  A classic example is, for instance, "levelling up will give you a boost that lets you win this fight, but then your next fight is going to be against a levelled-up opponent ... since you haven't accumulated the sort of loot that you'd need to face those opponents, levelling up now is an immense risk, and maybe long-term suicide."  But there are lots of ways to balance the good things of levelling up against the bad things (I'm thinking also of the "puppy-dog effect" I used in running Amber ... weaker, younger kids get a lot more slack from their elders than stronger, more capable ones).

[Callan S.]

On the theme of them chosing when they level up, I'd suggest they instead decide how much experience they get. Leveling is binary (Yes I should get power, no I shouldn't). When they decide experience, the variability of the number leads to more of an expression. Just have it in a bracket - they can choose between 200 and 1000 XP for the session (or whatever numbers you set it at). Important rule to follow: This is said aloud by each player at the table, to the group.

In practice I'd imagine you'd consistantly get alot of high numbers, but I doubt consistant 1000XP. Not many people have the ego for that. What you'll likely see is a sort of average assignment of XP across the group, but players who think they didn't do well will drop it by fifty points or some amount.  They may even think/do that even if you as GM think they did well, which is a refreshing shift of GM power.

You can also do an illusionist version: Its stated both the GM and the player decide an amount in secret, but if the players exceeds the GM's number, his XP is halved.

The illusionist bit is you never bother to decide an amount (they don't know this, since its done secretly), and simply okay anything they say. The trick with this is that it makes them really consider what you as GM thought during play, but at the same time they are fully in control really. Kind of an illusionist player empowerment.

They might figure it out eventually, but then it basically becomes the idea from above, which still works.

[johnwedd]

oooh this is gonna be one of those, lol.

anyway, the whole "comedic value" is an awsome idea. the dragonball series was one of those extremely pulpy anime's where Level wasn't even. an issue, only something to hold the plot together, and from my experience watching it; it was used like duct tape. My suggestion, split up the whole quest/campaign system into, episodes. some episodes are just quicky things where just one or two enemies show them selves, and the characters have to be stronger somehow, and/or they have to do something different that they've "never done before" dispite the fact its so painfully obvious.

episodes can be two parters, or trilogies, or a single story arch, (4-5 episodes), or a saga; where everyone either dies, becomes a non-player character, or changes in such a new mysterious way that they become different character types altogether.

then go from there.

PS: the improvised settings maybe the key to keeping it so fun to play. happy gameing.

[TheMadman]

Thanx for all the feedback, there's some great ideas in there. I forgot to say that my name is Jean-Pierre Jacques. As people usually mistake when they use it call me JP or anything if you want.


I really like Johnwedd's idea of episodes. Maybe I could start the session with something like "tonight's episode is: episode title here"
and let them wonder what the title means.

Matt Machell asked about why the teachers want the loot or dead monsters.  there would be 2 types of answers.
sane reasons:
For animals mythical creatures maybe they use the loots to make some potions/ointment/remedy
or because they are supposed to be good luck charms. (nothing that would influence game mechanics)
For other creatures like our expansionist robot "race" their crystal-heart (energy source)
could be used to power up old devices.
insane reasons:
He wants zombies' eyes because it give to his soup some great spicy flavor (and the characters discover it when they
are eating it)



TonyLB talked about not getting a sense of the huge downside of not getting more powerful.

Im still not sure about that. there are big tournaments in our world so they might want more power to win one of those, but it's thin. Maybe make some funny goal about clichés like save the princess or world.



Kashell wrote "Figure out why the system is comedic and fun, and then add to that"

I think what made it fun was that the setting was different from what they usually play. they were born at the beginning of the adventure from mushrooms (will modify that, it was borrowed from orks in warhammer 40k) in that world A day last a month with the moon circling around the world 28times every day.  they learned the basics of life, "monsters eat people, people eat monsters, sometimes monsters eat monsters, but people NEVER eat people". They acquired some anti-tracking devices from an old hermit who accidentally created them while trying to create a toaster. the toaster didn't work so he chopped it in 3 and discovered that each part worked has anti-tracking device. I just wonder if a well defined funny setting would be enough to make it comedic in games of people who never played it. Probably I guess.


For level ups, I think I'll go for training. the group of characters pay the master/teacher to get trained together
(I like the characters to stay of the same level) getting a higher level gives you some more power but they mostly increase your potential power as with increased attributes you'll be able to learn more powerful techniques. (we are aiming at 90-100offensive techniques and mabye 50-60 defensive ones)

got a lot of stuff left to do...