Heroes of Leyreth - A Christian based RPG

[Adam Graham]

[Clinton R. Nixon]

Adam,

A few questions:

- I see that you are definitely using standard fantasy tropes (elves, dwarves, etc) alongside the Christian influence. What are you going to do about magic? Your game seems to be teetering between allegory and interpretation, and letting good guys go around making holy fire and whatnot will push you towards allegory. I'm fairly certain your game will be strengthened by making faith something that personally gives you strength, but doesn't physically affect anything.

- What do your mechanics look like now? It's very possible to have a traditional style RPG with some mechanics that show the values of characters. Pendragon is a very good example of this, and seems to fit well in the model you're describing here.

[Adam Graham]

I have to go to work so I only have time for a quick response regarding the question of magic. 

There are 3 basic types of magic in the system. elemental, conjuration, and necromancy.  Of these only elemental magic is not deemed an abomination to the church as its power base taps into the same dominion God granted the Blessed Ones in order for them to have control over their environment and therefor is considered holy.  I realize biblically this is not supported except in a few theories that believe Adam possibly had full control over his environment before his fall into sin.  As for necromancy and conjuration magic, there is no doubt left open in their descriptions as to whether or not they are vile and wicked magics.

As for the priest type class for the system they don't cast spells as would the magi class.  First of all Magi can fail in their spell casting whereas an Apostle's prayers are granted fully by God and always work perfectly as it is not the Apostle performing the miracle but God doing so through them.
 
I do have the slight fear that as this project could be used as a type of tool for ministry by opening the participants up to the idea of biblical events that magic could be misconstrued as acceptable.  However I do plan on inserting a type of "Mission Statement" if you will  in the project informing about this being a fictional fantasy work for entertainment purposes and not a biblical textbook on right and wrong.

[johnwedd]

This seams very, very, bad.

[Adam Cerling]

Hello, Adam!

As another Adam with a deep interest in this kind of material, I'd like to ask: what do you want your game to do better than any other game out there?

Do you want a vehicle for players to righteously vanquish clear-cut evil, like in Middle Earth? An allegorical teaching tool, like Dragonraid?

It's really interesting to me that you classify "conjuration" as an unholy magic. Why is that? Wouldn't miracles like manna, or the loaves and fishes, be "conjuring" up food to feed the hungry?

It is also interesting to me that an Apostle's prayers always work perfectly. I don't usually understand the Christian faith to operate like that: even some of Jesus' prayers never came to pass, and the Psalms are full of questions asking why God is silent and distant. Why are prayers more effective in Leyreth? Why can only Priests pray this way? What prevents them from praying all their problems away?

Also, if it's all right to pry: can you describe a little bit of your gaming background, and church background?

Adam C.

[Ron Edwards]

This is a moderator post.

John, your value judgments are totally out of place here. The person who started the thread wants help with his game, that's all. If you do not want to provide such help, then no one is making you do it.

Find threads about games you want to provide constructive advice for. Don't post in threads about games which you don't want to help out.

Do not post in this thread regarding your opinions or your response to being moderated. Either send me a private message, or start a thread in the Site Discussion if you want it to be public.

Everyone else, please continue with the discussion and please ignore John's intrusion (i.e. do not honor it with attention).

Best, Ron

[Adam Graham]

Hi, some people just have the best names eh?

As another Adam with a deep interest in this kind of material, I'd like to ask: what do you want your game to do better than any other game out there?

Nothing like the tough questions first, and to this one I don't know that I'm trying to do anything better or worse than what is available as much as I'm doing it my way.  I'm attempting to develop a system that is consistently challenging at all levels of play for both heavy role play and fair to moderate combat as I enjoy a mixture of the two. The game setting I am trying to create is something of a dark world overcome with evil where the devout are in a struggle  to preserve righteousness against these great evils.

Do you want a vehicle for players to righteously vanquish clear-cut evil, like in Middle Earth? An allegorical teaching tool, like Dragonraid?

I'm not really familiar with these two systems but I think the answer would be a combination of the two.  The idea is that the threats of evil are clearly defined and as players are to be heroes of righteousness they will stand against such evils.

It's really interesting to me that you classify "conjuration" as an unholy magic. Why is that? Wouldn't miracles like manna, or the loaves and fishes, be "conjuring" up food to feed the hungry?

Conjuration magic in my system deals completely with the summoning of demonic entities and, or, duplicating certain powers of these entities.  Miracles such as the feeding of 5,000 would be a miracle and not a focus of magic.

It is also interesting to me that an Apostle's prayers always work perfectly. I don't usually understand the Christian faith to operate like that: even some of Jesus' prayers never came to pass, and the Psalms are full of questions asking why God is silent and distant. Why are prayers more effective in Leyreth? Why can only Priests pray this way? What prevents them from praying all their problems away?

This is going to be a long answer that goes a bit off topic.
Every class, apostle, crusader, magi, pathfinder and rook have access to what is called devotions.  Currently every class has 3 devotions to chose from and each devotion represents a field of ability that the class is focused in.  Apostles have Protection, Rejuvenation and Smite.  Each of these devotions have in them 5 talents ranked form 1 to 5.  Characters begin play with 2 talents and receive an additional talent every odd level.  Talents must be learned in order of their rank within their specific devotion.  As from level 1 to 20 (max level) characters only learn 11 devotions they must chose how they desire for their character to grow.  For the most part talents apply added benefits to combat, spells, or other abilities had by the character class.  In the case of Apostles their talents are spell like abilities referred to as prayers, that can only be used a certain number of times per day, as God does not endlessly supply His servants with blessings.  As I wish to represent the absoluteness and unfailingness of God's power these prayers never fail to do what they do.  Obviously their power is balanced to this purpose.  In this regard the prayers of an Apostle are unfailing, though they are not normal prayers as you are thinking of.  Currently I do not have a system for ordinary prayer in the game, and I don't know if I will.  I know one can argue of how you can't have a Christian game without prayer but  the Christian aspect of the game is more considered as the ideals of what one is fighting for than full on duplication of the faith.
Maybe with this I am missing something.  I am more than welcome to ideas.

Also, if it's all right to pry: can you describe a little bit of your gaming background, and church background?

I have been playing RPG's for about 18 - 20 years now, its something I was introduced to in Jr. college around the time D&D was in the beginnings of its 2nd edition.  I've played all the AD&D and D&D releases as well as Cyberpunk, Shadowrun, Synnibarr, Vampire, and a few others.  Currently I am play testing this game as well as involved in a bi-weekly Orpheous campaign (which is a real load of fun).  I was also an avid Warhammer 40k fan back in the old days of the first edition rules.
Church wise, I've been a Christian for  13 years.  I attend a  non-denominational church that is fairly widespread in California where I have been an Old Testament Sunday School teacher to 4th grade kids for the last 5 years.

Thanx for the input,  I look forward to more of your comments and advice.
Adam

[Seth M. Drebitko]

[Adam Cerling]

Adam --

Thanks for the extra information on your background and goals. Would you be interested in how other games have tackled these themes? You may find it useful to compare.

You owe a look to Dragonraid, probably the first explicitly Christian RPG ever. It takes its role as a teaching tool very seriously, to the point of rewarding players for memorizing Scripture and such. Check out its website, at least -- how is it similar to or different from what you want to achieve?

Fantasy Flight Games' Midnight is a Dungeons & Dragons setting where Evil has completely taken over, making the good guys' job nearly impossible to do. The setting gives a very flavorful look at a world bent beneath the oppression of a dark power.

I am contractually obligated by my Forge membership to mention Dogs in the Vineyard -- a game about roving religious judges, using guns and faith to solve problems in Mormon-ish frontier towns of the 1800s west. This game can be a powerful critique of justice, faith, and violence, which means to me it's potentially one of the best Christian games out there. But then, I like doubt and moral quandaries in my Christianity, 'cuz that's closest to my real-life experience.

Testament: Roleplaying in the Biblical Era is (like Midnight) a d20 product created for explicitly modeling Old Testament characters and events.

...Even if you never read these books, looking up reviews and Actual Play accounts may be educational. Food for thought, at least!

Regarding the specifics of your game, I'm surprised you're creating your own system instead of creating a d20 expansion product. Many of your mechanics are directly inspired by D&D (classes, races, levels, special support for combat and magic, etc.), so what inspired you to invent your own dice mechanic?

I like that each class has three devotions. I presume there's some overlap? Does each class have at least one devotion that nobody else can get, as in Vampire: the Requiem clan disciplines? It sounds a bit disappointing that I only get new stuff every other level... I know I'd feel like the even levels were a waste of time if nothing else special happens at those milesones.

That's all for now --

Adam

[Eero Tuovinen]

Oh boy, we're getting some good discussion here! I'm a happy elf now. For those coming in only now, here's the original thread where we started. Adam's resolution system is explained there in detail.

There are 3 basic types of magic in the system. elemental, conjuration, and necromancy.  Of these only elemental magic is not deemed an abomination to the church as its power base taps into the same dominion God granted the Blessed Ones in order for them to have control over their environment and therefor is considered holy.  I realize biblically this is not supported except in a few theories that believe Adam possibly had full control over his environment before his fall into sin.  As for necromancy and conjuration magic, there is no doubt left open in their descriptions as to whether or not they are vile and wicked magics.

I just want to say that while I completely support the tack Clinton suggested (to make faith an off-screen phenomenon of value judgement), this also rocks my socks off. Having stereotypical rpg fantasy metaphysics that ties in with Christian themes is some completely crazy shit, because it implies a different theology from the one we have in Christian churches. What's more, what I'm reading here looks like it's just the same ol' Christian God in there, except that the game just happens to happen in a world where his ways are different. And thus, different metaphysics and theology. Reminds me of Narnia, where the latter books are pretty much all about this topic. I'd be interested in playing a game that deals with the implications of this different theology.

As for the priest type class for the system they don't cast spells as would the magi class.  First of all Magi can fail in their spell casting whereas an Apostle's prayers are granted fully by God and always work perfectly as it is not the Apostle performing the miracle but God doing so through them.

Hee hee, I love this stuff. Shame your game has such heavy and traditional resolution systems. (Shame for me, I mean; the important part is that you're happy yourself.)

I do have the slight fear that as this project could be used as a type of tool for ministry by opening the participants up to the idea of biblical events that magic could be misconstrued as acceptable.  However I do plan on inserting a type of "Mission Statement" if you will  in the project informing about this being a fictional fantasy work for entertainment purposes and not a biblical textbook on right and wrong.

Certainly. Hold onto your artistic freedom, I always say. Nothing good comes of hunting the lowest common denominator.

Now, to agree with the other Adam...

Media I recommend you consume before continuing your project follows. Really, knowing who you stack against is half the battle, and drawing from the common culture is pretty much de rigueur anyway. And these are not meant to replace Adam's list, but rather to enchance it.

The Lord of the Rings: the book by J.R.R. Tolkien, being where "Middle-Earth", elves and dwarves come from. Pretty much a compulsory read for anybody doing fantasy in the style they call "post-Tolkienistic", which is what this very much is. Also: Silmarillion, Tolkien's other big book, which is very much about similar themes to what you have here. Silmarillion is what your prologue most reminded me of.

Narnia: the series of books by C.S. Lewis, a friend of Tolkien, above. More explicit in its Christianity than the above, to the extent of causing allergic reactions in some pagans. Still, a classic of fantasy literature; I mentioned above how your approach to magic reminded me about Narnia for some reason.

Multiverser: the roleplaying game by E.R. Jones & M.J. Young. The game has its faults, but even then it's the best Christian rpg I've seen and an interesting read for anybody. Dragonraid might be better for all I know, though, not having seen that one.

Sorcerer: the roleplaying game by Ron Edwards, another one of those obligatory indie games you're going to get thrown at you when visiting the Forge... Sorcerer is about power and responsibility, and about summoning demons. Very much about being the renegade, not God's good little soldier. More significantly for this discussion, I recommend the game for it's systemic solutions: I suspect that you might find them illustrative in many ways, based on our discussion about the system of your game in the other thread. Many people find Sorcerer quite significant in this regard, indeed...

In the case of Apostles their talents are spell like abilities referred to as prayers, that can only be used a certain number of times per day, as God does not endlessly supply His servants with blessings.  As I wish to represent the absoluteness and unfailingness of God's power these prayers never fail to do what they do.  Obviously their power is balanced to this purpose.

A random question that popped up regarding this: while the above no doubt works, I'm left asking why prayers are usable a certain number of times per day, instead of some more interesting and uncertain method. I'd find it interesting if there was some more... qualitative method for determining when it works, instead of a quota. I don't know exactly what'd this be so that it wouldn't degenerate into the GM deciding when it works and when it doesn't, though. Perhaps some method for figuring out when the character is in grace and when he isn't, with a structure to the game that tends to limit what characters can do without falling out of grace. What I'm thinking of is that a holy man in RL (well, anyway...) doesn't have a limit to how many times he can do the miracle; the only limit is that he not waste the power frivolously. So it stands to reason that an Apostle of level x, who has just learned the miracle of creating food for the needy would, indeed, be able to do this whenever it was needed, in whatever quantities needed. And his power would only fail him if he tried to create food that was not needed, or tried to feed people who were meant to starve by the God's plan. So IMO you should rather keep track of the frivolity instead of uses per day. I don't know...

In this regard the prayers of an Apostle are unfailing, though they are not normal prayers as you are thinking of.  Currently I do not have a system for ordinary prayer in the game, and I don't know if I will.  I know one can argue of how you can't have a Christian game without prayer but  the Christian aspect of the game is more considered as the ideals of what one is fighting for than full on duplication of the faith.
Maybe with this I am missing something.  I am more than welcome to ideas.

Healthy attitude, there. You could do all kinds of prayer rules, but I agree that you can live without as well. Especially in a GM-full game, I don't know how well any praying rules that weren't essentially random would fare.

(I should mention here, so as to not throw anybody off their rail: I'm agnostic and personally uncaring of issues of faith. I know a bit or two about religion, but care about the issue only in the abstract, as fodder for art. So I'm not advicing about how a Christian game should be created, just telling about what I'd find interesting in such a game.)

[Adam Graham]

Though I will touch on a few of these topics I must say that this discussion has opened me up to the idea of creating a Faith attribute that can track different acts and attitudes of the players in their regards to acting in a righteous manner.  Whether anything will come of it I am not sure, as though it is relatively simple to create a chart of positive and negative bonuses for acting in a righteous or unrighteous manner implementation still comes at the discretion of the GM which often can be described as whimsical at best.  Furthermore I fear it could give rise to a meta game mentality of trying to eek out that last small bonus of which I am not a fan of.  On the up side such an attribute can be used to further enforce the ideals of the game setting and the players responsibilities as heroes.  Obviously such an attribute could be used for determining how well, and how often, an apostles talents can be used.

Anyway on with the show.

Posted by: Seth M. Bashwinger

Quote

Quote

Thanks for the extra information on your background and goals. Would you be interested in how other games have tackled these themes? You may find it useful to compare.

Thanx for the listing, I will defiantly check some of these out.  I have heard of most of the famous titles you mention however novel wise I'm not much of a reader, I'm very slow and have a hard time remembering what I've read in long books.  Unfortunately I don't watch many of these movies either, History channel or bust for me.  I do know and understand many of the biblical points and references form Lord of the Rings and Narnia though.  I will have to take a look at the other 3.  Inspiration can come from anywhere and I'm open to it all.

Regarding the specifics of your game, I'm surprised you're creating your own system instead of creating a d20 expansion product. Many of your mechanics are directly inspired by D&D (classes, races, levels, special support for combat and magic, etc.), so what inspired you to invent your own dice mechanic?

I hate D20, there I said it.  I know that mathematically it might be close to my system just implemented differently but I really really abhor their Hit Point and damage system.  One nice thing my system does that I truly love about it is that it is one roll.  Damage is determined by how well you hit.  And the skill/ability system all uses the same system as combat.  It may not be perfect but I really like it and so far my play testers do as well (but then they might be bias since they eat MY popcorn and drink MY soda).  Class, and level wise, I  started with a general skill type progression similar to Vampire instead of levels, I just find levels to be easier to work with in regards to power comparisons between different characters and other entities so it stuck.  On top of this I also liked the idea of creating something that was mine, and that alone can attribute to a lot of why I wanted to use my own system.

I like that each class has three devotions. I presume there's some overlap? Does each class have at least one devotion that nobody else can get, as in Vampire: the Requiem clan disciplines? It sounds a bit disappointing that I only get new stuff every other level... I know I'd feel like the even levels were a waste of time if nothing else special happens at those milestones.

There is no overlap actually.  All classes get three unique devotions.  Monstrous races sometimes borrow from more than one classes devotion but usually never more than 2 and they are still limited in access to only 3 devotions worth of abilities at the same advancement rate per level as player characters.  As to only getting new stuff every other level that only pertains to talents.  Skill points are awarded every level, now I know skills aren't as cool as talents but if ya got one every level you'd get 20 talents and currently I only have 15 per class.


Posted by: Eero Tuovinen
Insert Quote
Hello again Eero,

I just want to say that while I completely support the tack Clinton suggested (to make faith an off-screen phenomenon of value judgement), this also rocks my socks off. Having stereotypical rpg fantasy metaphysics that ties in with Christian themes is some completely crazy shit, because it implies a different theology from the one we have in Christian churches. What's more, what I'm reading here looks like it's just the same ol' Christian God in there, except that the game just happens to happen in a world where his ways are different. And thus, different metaphysics and theology. Reminds me of Narnia, where the latter books are pretty much all about this topic. I'd be interested in playing a game that deals with the implications of this different theology.

Thanx fer the compliment, you have said better than I have about what I am trying to create.

A random question that popped up regarding this: while the above no doubt works, I'm left asking why prayers are usable a certain number of times per day, instead of some more interesting and uncertain method. I'd find it interesting if there was some more... qualitative method for determining when it works, instead of a quota. I don't know exactly what'd this be so that it wouldn't degenerate into the GM deciding when it works and when it doesn't, though. Perhaps some method for figuring out when the character is in grace and when he isn't, with a structure to the game that tends to limit what characters can do without falling out of grace. What I'm thinking of is that a holy man in RL (well, anyway...) doesn't have a limit to how many times he can do the miracle; the only limit is that he not waste the power frivolously. So it stands to reason that an Apostle of level x, who has just learned the miracle of creating food for the needy would, indeed, be able to do this whenever it was needed, in whatever quantities needed. And his power would only fail him if he tried to create food that was not needed, or tried to feed people who were meant to starve by the God's plan. So IMO you should rather keep track of the frivolity instead of uses per day. I don't know.

Alas I am not a fan of the times per day thing either.  It is the only place in my entire system that uses such a counter.  The GM deciding doesn't work very well either as you have stated.  The Faith attribute I mentioned above may be a solution but I'll have to come up with a few different ways of doing it then play test them.  The power as needed method I think is by far the best however this again falls to GM interpretation where strict GMs will allow few uses and liberal GMs far to many.  If anyone has an idea of how to implement this I would love to hear it.

Thank you all for your feedback it is all getting my mind working on these issues in directions I have not thought of, I am truly grateful.
Adam

[Simon C]

[a href="http://files.crngames.com/cc/paladin/paladin.html"]Paladin[/a] by Clinton Nixon might be worth a look too, especially since it's free.  It does religious characters who kick ass for the lord with a very simple system, and that indie ethos we all love.

I'd suggest at least reading it.

[baron samedi]

Hi Adam,

I find your initiative extremely interesting; I'm in the process of finishing the layout for the 2nd edition of my own RPG, that focuses also a religious angle where faith and responsibility is a cornerstone.

A suggestion: read Jonathan Hayward's essay about the problem of the "Gamist" paradigm in regards to Christianity in roleplaying. It should raise important issues about the problem of the focus of most rpgs - reward systems with personal power - in regard to Christianity's values - humility before God and goodness to mankind.

I found Mr Hayward's essay extremely useful from a design perspective, as I did John Kirk III's free book, "RPG design patterns", that is great to help think outside the box of D&D.

Theology in play:
http://jonathanscorner.com/tms/general/general.html

Most classical RPGs are not very supportive of a faith-focused state of mind, but more on skirmishing... What Ron Edwards has called "fantasy heartbreakers" are legion in this regard in adressing poorly Christianity or any religion, simply because of not "thinking outside the box" - and I'm among those to blame. I wish you success where others have failed in the past!

Anyway, I suggest you use the POWER 19 questionnaire, as suggested above, to test whether your system meets your goals.

Good luck!

Erick

[sean2099]

Hi Adam,

I noticed you have mentioned d20 and at least looking at the White Wolf system.  What other games have you played?  For instance, I was thinking about the game Pendragon.  Older rpg where you play at knights and other medieval classes, including religious "classes" based on Christian roles and Pagan roles.  It also had virtue scores and etc.  Set in a different time period but assumed magic existed as in legends.  Also Ars Magica, yes it has magi and that but there is a decent amout of information on how religious types would perceive magic users and etc.  Best of all, the fourth edition download is free (as I believe they are fifth edition at least).

It sounds like we are looking at games examining the capacity of man to good in the face of temptation although I have chosen to do this by looking at what would happen if ordinary people were given super powers.  Refreshing to see I am not the only one looking at somewhat similar issues.

Sean

[baron samedi]

Adam, If you read French, I'd definitely recommend reading "Miles Christi"', a 1995 roleplaying game by Sans Peur et Sans Reproche inc. about Templars at the Crusades, facing conflicting vows as soldiers, monks and Christians in a Muslim world. Each of these three aspects is a characteristic by itself, the game uses Tarot cards and there is even a confessional aspect in the game.

A summary and 15 reviews of the game (French)
http://www.roliste.com/jeu.jsp?id=288&ft=1

Erick