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Author Topic: The masculine flaw (and a tangent about magic)  (Read 13667 times)
Valamir
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« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2002, 03:17:37 PM »

Quote from: Psychopompous

Okay that's great and powerful, yeah. Not useful to players or Seneschals though...

Seneschal introduces evil sorcer... the players are now dead and there's nothing they could have done.


Awww, now see, now you're just not thinking creatively enough.  There are probably dozens, if not hundreds (in a big plot) who are a thorn in a sorcerer's side.  He's not going to magic kill everyone...not cost effective.  Someone that powerful who is involved as something more than the lonely witch in the wilderness is likely to have maneuvered themselves into a nice position of power.  There are plenty of mundane things that can be thrown at the PCs first...most thorns can be easily removed in that manner.

After a few sessions of escalation the players come to suspect there's a powerful sorcerer sitting at the top of the conspiracy.  Hell, in D&D that's so cliche it'd get a big "yeah, so what".  In RoS...."Holy shit...do you think he knows who we are yet?...God I hope not..."  I can't imagine a better "uh-oh" moment than that.

Now the question becomes "how to dispose of the sorcerer without him getting a link to us"  Imagine how paranoid that party will make themselves.  Heck in RoS, sorcerers are so nasty that players with long established heroes who fought their way to glory over a dozen duels will piss themselves without the GM having to do more than mention there might be one nearby.  

Now what's Mr. Hero going do.  He's all brave and all when it comes to crossing blades...now he's dealing with magic.  What game have you ever played where players would fear magic (and what it could do to their favorite character) as much as real people feared magic.  The inquisition and salem witch trials didn't condemn magic users because they feared a Web spell being cast.  Hell, the shear threat of knowing their favorite character might die at any time and there's nothing they can do about could turn your average player into a rabid witch hunter himself.  Imagine the great stories to be told as the great hero of the people succombs to paranoia and begins to participate in the burning of innocent people on suspicion of witchcraft...No amount of GM railroading could ever accomplish something so delicious...but with magic that is truely frightening players may well go down that road all on their own.

In fact, Terry Goodkind captures this nicely in his fantasy series where the army is the Steel against Steel so that Lord Rahl can be the Magic against Magic.  The bravest most professional army in the world is absolutely terrified of facing and opponent with magic.

Stop thinking of wizards as a "character class" to round out the party with.  They are not in RoS and cannot be used that way.
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Psychopompous
Member

Posts: 27


« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2002, 04:35:06 PM »

>>> Stop thinking of wizards as a "character class" to round out the party with. They are not in RoS and cannot be used that way. <<<

I'm not :)
The thing is, you can either cast spells or you can't. And the way character creation works right now if you grab the ability to cast spells (much less cast them well) your other abilities really start to suffer (which is fine, or would be if sorcery were very useful more of the time).
The biggest advantage (as far as I can tell) of having a sorcer among the player characters is the Familiar minor advantage (assuming the seneschal allows polar bears and/or great cats) at which point you can fight decently well by possessing your familiar.

>>> Awww, now see, now you're just not thinking creatively enough. There are probably dozens, if not hundreds (in a big plot) who are a thorn in a sorcerer's side. He's not going to magic kill everyone...not cost effective. Someone that powerful who is involved as something more than the lonely witch in the wilderness is likely to have maneuvered themselves into a nice position of power. There are plenty of mundane things that can be thrown at the PCs first...most thorns can be easily removed in that manner.

After a few sessions of escalation the players come to suspect there's a powerful sorcerer sitting at the top of the conspiracy. Hell, in D&D that's so cliche it'd get a big "yeah, so what". In RoS...."Holy shit...do you think he knows who we are yet?...God I hope not..." I can't imagine a better "uh-oh" moment than that.

Now the question becomes "how to dispose of the sorcerer without him getting a link to us" Imagine how paranoid that party will make themselves. Heck in RoS, sorcerers are so nasty that players with long established heroes who fought their way to glory over a dozen duels will piss themselves without the GM having to do more than mention there might be one nearby.

Now what are you going to do mr hero. You're all brave and all when it comes to crossing blades...now you're dealing with magic. What game have you ever played where players would fear magic (and what it could do to their favorite character) as much as real people feared magic. The inquisition and salem witch trials didn't condemn magic users because they feared a Web spell being cast. Hell, the shear threat of knowing their favorite character might die at any time and there's nothing they can do about could turn your average player into a rabid witch hunter himself. Imagine the great stories to be told as the great hero of the people succombs to paranoia and begins to participate in the burning of innocent people on suspicion of witchcraft...No amount of GM railroading could ever accomplish something so delicious...but with magic that is truely frightening players may well go down that road all on their own. <<<

You seem to have missed my point on motivation... It's not hard at all for a sorcerer (through vision, movement, and conquer) to get everything a person could ever want which is to say: Sex, Comfort, and Security. All he/she has to do is cast 2 spells (A spell to steal a bunch of money from halfway across the world, and Lust)...
Then the sorcerer retires, if the place he stole all the money from ever finds out (Fat chance! Unless of course they have a sorceror actually willing to cast a spell for them) there's a problem, otherwise he/she basically never comes into conflict with anyone and if it's done right nobody even has reason to suspect the sorcerer as being gifted and carefree, fulfilled life.
Why would any sorcerer ever follow any different path?

Anyway, considering all that it's not particularly hard for a sorcerer to manuever herself into a position of power if that happens to be appealing to said person. The problem here (assuming the sorcerer isn't completely incompetent) is the kind of power that creates rivals has a tendency of destroying security (and thereby reducing comfort), if they really want thrills they can do something less disruptive and just go climbing/skydiving/etc.

Besides a sorcerer being nearby isn't dangerous... It's the ones who are far away that you have to be terrified of...

Besides, I don't particularly like the threat of some random sorcerer smiting my character hanging over my head all the time. If I get a character killed I want it to be because I screwed up, not because there was simply nothing that could be done to prevent it. I guess I'm strange that way...
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Bob Richter
Member

Posts: 324


« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2002, 06:24:10 PM »

Quote from: Valamir
Quote from: Bob Richter
Quote from: Jake Norwood
A sorcerer can disintegrate anyone, anywhere, with almost no chance of failure. He might age a a few months (although if he incorporates it into a ritual then it won't be such a problem), but the bad-ass villian you've created is gone...no problem. Is it not internally balanced? No, there's a price and it's not free, but you can't possibly imply that TROS magic is balanced in any kind of wider-game-play traditional sense...

Jake


Sure I can. It's one of the weakest magic systems I've ever come across. Just being able to disintegrate one guy a day, with a link to him, with even a small chance of failure, doesn't really make it worth the aging you will almost certainly take.


Bob, you've posted alot of good stuff in your brief time on this forum, but you have this unfortuneate tendency to make great sweeping statements based on initial reactions.  

I suspect you are comparing RoS sorcery to some magic missile, fire ball blasting, 1 man artillery battalion model of a wizard.  You correctly realize that this sort of magic-user doesn't exist in in TRoS so you conclude that magic is weak.  Bah.  magic is different.  Like swordsman, if you charge in full bore without thinking...you die.  Stupid swordsmen die of a sword thrust, stupid sorcerers die of premature aging.  

Back up and think about how a TRoS sorcerer really operates.  You never see him.  You never interact with him.  You've never heard of him.  But somewhere along the line you started unknowingly interfering with his machinations.  Now you are dead, and noone knows how or why, and the sorcerer continues on with his plans.  That is a heluva lot scarier and more powerful than any fireball slinger.

How do you fight that...how do you stop it...how do you even discover who he is?  Weak magic system?...hardly.  The only magic system I've seen which is more potentially devastating is that of Orkwold Elves.


tRoS's magic system is normally only abnormally devastating to the user. Well, unless you're particularly keen on nuking cities. Any other effect it can come up is fairly easily replicated in the other magic systems I'm familiar with (DnD 3ed, Shadowrun,) just without the premature aging (though Shadowrun does have the knockout mechanic.)

Talk about boring -- an enemy I never see or interact with who kills me. That's like the chance of being hit by a bus while sitting in your living room. It's not scary, it's just there. There's nothing you can do, so why worry?

Magic ISN'T all that different (momentarily laying aside its versatility) it just COSTS more and is HARDER to do. That makes it weaker.

And while it CAN destroy a city, it can't restore life to the dead, create matter from nothingness, or any of the other good stuff that more potent magic systems can do.
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Brian Leybourne
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Posts: 1793


« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2002, 07:04:05 PM »

Quote from: Psychopompous
You seem to have missed my point on motivation... It's not hard at all for a sorcerer (through vision, movement, and conquer) to get everything a person could ever want which is to say: Sex, Comfort, and Security. All he/she has to do is cast 2 spells (A spell to steal a bunch of money from halfway across the world, and Lust)...
Then the sorcerer retires, if the place he stole all the money from ever finds out (Fat chance! Unless of course they have a sorceror actually willing to cast a spell for them) there's a problem, otherwise he/she basically never comes into conflict with anyone and if it's done right nobody even has reason to suspect the sorcerer as being gifted and carefree, fulfilled life.
Why would any sorcerer ever follow any different path?


You seem to be laboring under the misassumption that since you seem to desire nothing more out of life than sex and physical comfort, obviously everyone else only desires those things as well.

I would say "get a life" but that would be rude, so I'll merely point out that the human beast is a lot more complex than that, and different people have very different desires in life. Sex and wealth come into it, yes, but so does personal power, political power, the respect of others, love (there's a difference between someone loving you and you using the lust spell on that person; even if they don't know they only want you because of magic, you will), (in)fame; the list goes on and on.

Brian.
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Brian Leybourne
bleybourne@gmail.com

RPG Books: Of Beasts and Men, The Flower of Battle, The TROS Companion
Psychopompous
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Posts: 27


« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2002, 08:31:49 PM »

>>> but so does personal power, political power <<<

As I pointed out earlier... those are easy. Using Conquer to make the king abdicate in your favor comes to mind...

>>> the respect of others, love <<<

And how are you going to accomplish those?

>>> (in)fame <<<

Fame can't be done with magic (at least not as far as I can tell), now infamy is easy, but I'm guessing you don't want the inquisition killing you...

How would the motivations of any sorcerer drive them to join an adventuring party of become a major villian?
And even if you ignore the motivation aspect it's just not interesting most of the time... Villian sorcerer simply kills player group (if he ever notices the players are interfereing somehow in his plans)... Player sorcerer can cast precisely one spell in a scene this may or may not be useful, take the exemple from the book of the 3 players running into 5 hefs... Let's say one of the players is a sorcerer who knows fireball, so he presents this plan: I fireball them and you guys take out any that survive (if any survive)...

Makes that encounter kinda sad...
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Jake Norwood
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« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2002, 08:44:52 PM »

It seems to me that there's a lot of unconstructive complaining going on in here, with one camp saying "think more creativley, if you think it's weak/boring that that's 'cause you made it so," and another camp that says "TROS magic is hopelessly weak, dull, and useless." I pretty obvioiusly belong to one camp, but despite that I'm getting tired of this thread fast. It is NOT getting anywhere. Some of you want to bitch and moan (I dig), but you're not willing to take the solutions that have made magic fun in our games. That's cool, I dig, but the horse is dead and it's still getting beat.

So give the poor bastard a break and bury it allready. If you have some ideas to make magic in TROS "cool" and useful by your own standards then by all means do share--many of us would *love* to see what you have to do with the system. But I'm sick "it sucks;""no it doesn't" crap for now, so dammit, cut it out.

I propose that those of you that have a beef with magic "as is" in TROS:
(1) Play in a campaign that has a PC sorcerer. Be creative. And hold back the harsher judgements until after you've found the system to either (a) rock out or (b) bore you to death. But by Jove at least try it.
(2) Offer a constructive solution to your problems, or be willing to work with the solutions suggested, instead of getting upset that your new toy is broke when you haven't pulled it out of the box completely. This forum is for usefull discussion, not just plain ranting--or at least not 2 pages of it.
(3) Accept the fact that it's a facet of the game that doesn't suit your style of play, and get on with enjoying the elements of the game that you do like (I assume that you do, of course. Bob has very strongly stated that he does, and though it doesn't usually show through in his posts I believe him, and would hate to see what he has to say about stuff he doesn't like!). If you like shadowrun or D&D magic then slide it over to TROS. Or go play D&D.

Finally, the revised edition of sorcery (the only part of the book to undergo any major revision) will be available online for those that have the book allready. Many of your concerns have been carefully addressed therein. If there's one thing that Driftwood and I can't be accused of it's "not listening." We're guilty of listening too much perhaps, and trying to please everyone of our "fans." You'll find that we are more responsive and faster to help iron things out than anyone out there, except maybe for Ron Edwards and Adept Press (who, in truth, seem to have fewer nay-sayers, whiners, and complicated rules to deal with...the last of those is our fault, but I like complicated games, dammit!).

Anyway...I'm overjoyed to see such emotional activity on the TROS forum. I'm glad it's seeing so much use. I'm just beginning to feel like we're all just whacking it here instead of going out to get some.

Jake
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"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." -R.E. Howard The Tower of the Elephant
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Bob Richter
Member

Posts: 324


« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2002, 02:29:19 AM »

Quote from: Jake Norwood
It seems to me that there's a lot of unconstructive complaining going on in here, with one camp saying "think more creativley, if you think it's weak/boring that that's 'cause you made it so," and another camp that says "TROS magic is hopelessly weak, dull, and useless." I pretty obvioiusly belong to one camp, but despite that I'm getting tired of this thread fast. It is NOT getting anywhere. Some of you want to bitch and moan (I dig), but you're not willing to take the solutions that have made magic fun in our games. That's cool, I dig, but the horse is dead and it's still getting beat.

So give the poor bastard a break and bury it allready. If you have some ideas to make magic in TROS "cool" and useful by your own standards then by all means do share--many of us would *love* to see what you have to do with the system. But I'm sick "it sucks;""no it doesn't" crap for now, so dammit, cut it out.

I propose that those of you that have a beef with magic "as is" in TROS:
(1) Play in a campaign that has a PC sorcerer. Be creative. And hold back the harsher judgements until after you've found the system to either (a) rock out or (b) bore you to death. But by Jove at least try it.
(2) Offer a constructive solution to your problems, or be willing to work with the solutions suggested, instead of getting upset that your new toy is broke when you haven't pulled it out of the box completely. This forum is for usefull discussion, not just plain ranting--or at least not 2 pages of it.
(3) Accept the fact that it's a facet of the game that doesn't suit your style of play, and get on with enjoying the elements of the game that you do like (I assume that you do, of course. Bob has very strongly stated that he does, and though it doesn't usually show through in his posts I believe him, and would hate to see what he has to say about stuff he doesn't like!). If you like shadowrun or D&D magic then slide it over to TROS. Or go play D&D.

Finally, the revised edition of sorcery (the only part of the book to undergo any major revision) will be available online for those that have the book allready. Many of your concerns have been carefully addressed therein. If there's one thing that Driftwood and I can't be accused of it's "not listening." We're guilty of listening too much perhaps, and trying to please everyone of our "fans." You'll find that we are more responsive and faster to help iron things out than anyone out there, except maybe for Ron Edwards and Adept Press (who, in truth, seem to have fewer nay-sayers, whiners, and complicated rules to deal with...the last of those is our fault, but I like complicated games, dammit!).

Anyway...I'm overjoyed to see such emotional activity on the TROS forum. I'm glad it's seeing so much use. I'm just beginning to feel like we're all just whacking it here instead of going out to get some.

Jake


I very seriously did NOT mean this discussion to stray into magic. It *WAS* about being kicked in the balls. (someone else brought up magic...must learn to ignore tangents!)

I have a lot to say on the subject, but I mean to say it in a more coherent and complete form (that was what "more on this later" was about.)

Ah well.

Yes, I really DO like this game. The combat system is just plain fun. I think I've decided a -2CP modifier for groin shots is an appropriate solution to this "bug" (after all, powerful groin shots have a certain cool cinematic quality about them, but there must be a reason we don't always go for the groin shot.)

Which, of course, is why I bring this stuff up, to get ideas on what to do about it.

Hm. I need to see if I can get a tRoS fix today. :)

For the record, we are going to play a more sorcery-oriented campaign...some of us look to be itching to try out our sorceror-characters. :)

And, as I said, more about magic when I know what I'm talking about. I'm shutting up now, I'd suggest ya'all do the same. :)
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Shadow
Member

Posts: 19


« Reply #37 on: June 04, 2002, 02:52:44 AM »

As long as the original topic (groin shots) and the tangent (powerful magic, i.e. instant disintegration from a distance out of nowhere) are not combined more directly, I will be happy...

Shadow
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Lance D. Allen
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Posts: 1962


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« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2002, 05:46:12 AM »

Quote from: Shadow
As long as the original topic (groin shots) and the tangent (powerful magic, i.e. instant disintegration from a distance out of nowhere) are not combined more directly, I will be happy...


I hope I don't get swatted for a pretty much pointless post, but this.. I needed this. I just got home, and a laugh is a great thing after a long night at work. I can just imagine this, though...


Evil Sorceror: You have interfered with my plans for the last time, Hero! <begins weaving complex signs in the air with his hands, and chanting in a strange tongue>

Party: <collective gasp>

Moody Hero: This looks bad...

Paladin-like Hero: Hah! I fear not your foul sorceries! Have at you! <charges the Evil Sorceror>

Apprentice Sorceror and Hero's girlfriend: NOOO!

Evil Sorceror: <finishes his spell, whipping his hands in a dramatic gesture at the charging Hero, and shrieks in triumph> Disintegrate!

Party: <yet another collective gasp>

Pally-like Hero: ulp! <freezes, but does not disintegrate>

Side-kick: His spell failed! The gods be praised!

Pally-like Hero: <sinks to his knees, whimpering>

Apprentice Sorceror, Hero's girl: What is it??? <then as understanding reaches her, she throws her head back in a wail of despair>

Evil Sorceror: <cackles malignantly and looks on in wicked amusement>

CUT!

Hehe... I love a good laugh in the morning.
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~Lance Allen
Wolves Den Publishing
Eternally Incipient Publisher of Mage Blade, ReCoil and Rats in the Walls
Furious D
Member

Posts: 55


« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2002, 07:33:55 AM »

Quote from: Psychopompous
>>> but so does personal power, political power <<<

1) As I pointed out earlier... those are easy. Using Conquer to make the king abdicate in your favor comes to mind...

>>> the respect of others, love <<<

2) And how are you going to accomplish those?

>>> (in)fame <<<

Fame can't be done with magic (at least not as far as I can tell), now infamy is easy, but I'm guessing you don't want the inquisition killing you...

3) How would the motivations of any sorcerer drive them to join an adventuring party of become a major villian?
And even if you ignore the motivation aspect it's just not interesting most of the time... Villian sorcerer simply kills player group (if he ever notices the players are interfereing somehow in his plans)... Player sorcerer can cast precisely one spell in a scene this may or may not be useful, take the exemple from the book of the 3 players running into 5 hefs... Let's say one of the players is a sorcerer who knows fireball, so he presents this plan: I fireball them and you guys take out any that survive (if any survive)...

Makes that encounter kinda sad...


Numbers added by me:

1) Why would a sorceror want to be king himself, when it's just plain safer to be pulling the strings in the background.

2) Not with magic, directly that's for sure.  That's where the whole "why adventure?" part comes in.

3) See #2, also see the section of the book on spiritual attributes.  These should answer the "why is my sorceror adventuring?" question.  And back to your example, why would most sorcerors do such a thing.  It's really only suited to those that have no Conscience (both parts of your plan qualify as Morally Wrong), have no Drive (except maybe one to "Live a life of leasure"), and no Destiny (is "Squander my great talents" a destiny?).  I'm guessing that most sorcerors have more ambition/curiosity/love of the art than that.  A good many of them are academecians, they study and practice magic purely for it's own sake, and are also likely to travel the earth (and plunder the crypts) in search of the wisdom of the ancients.  Heck, in that respect, they have a better excuse to be adventuring than most folks.

Are you really telling me that if you were Gifted with the power to affect the very fabric of reality that all you would do with it is steal a bunch of money and force some poor woman to be your sex slave?[/i]
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Bob Richter
Member

Posts: 324


« Reply #40 on: June 04, 2002, 10:14:08 AM »

(edited)

Quote from: Furious D
Are you really telling me that if you were Gifted with the power to affect the very fabric of reality that all you would do with it is steal a bunch of money and force some poor woman to be your sex slave?[/i]


I'm pretty sure he's telling you that's exactly what he'd do.

Actually, it doesn't sound like a bad gig.
:)
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So ye wanna go earnin' yer keep with yer sword, and ye think that it can't be too hard...
Valamir
Member

Posts: 5574


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« Reply #41 on: June 04, 2002, 10:32:57 AM »

Just a quick off topic note:  Could I ask that people start editing their quotes.  The quote button automatically quotes the entire text, but it can be deleted down to an appropriate amount.  3 pages of quote for a 2 line response is a little much.

Thanks.
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Ace
Member

Posts: 204


« Reply #42 on: June 04, 2002, 10:35:48 AM »

Quote from: Valamir
Quote from: Psychopompous

Okay that's great and powerful, yeah. Not useful to players or Seneschals though...

Seneschal introduces evil sorcer... the players are now dead and there's nothing they could have done.


SNIP

Quote

After a few sessions of escalation the players come to suspect there's a powerful sorcerer sitting at the top of the conspiracy.  Hell, in D&D that's so cliche it'd get a big "yeah, so what".  In RoS...."Holy shit...do you think he knows who we are yet?...God I hope not..."  I can't imagine a better "uh-oh" moment than that.

Now the question becomes "how to dispose of the sorcerer without him getting a link to us"  Imagine how paranoid that party will make themselves.  Heck in RoS, sorcerers are so nasty that players with long established heroes who fought their way to glory over a dozen duels will piss themselves without the GM having to do more than mention there might be one nearby.  



I am, like Psycopompus, concerned about the gameability of the magic system myself, not the playablity (AFAIK it play fine)or the game balance (its not supposed to be) but what kind of play does it lead to.


The "fear factor" doesn't sound much like the kind thing either I or my players would enjoy to tell you the truth.  After half a session in which the players could trust No One and Fear Everyone (conquer 3 don'tcha know) the players would be bored and walk out. I would (as a player) last a little longer but not much.

We play RPG's to "do stuff". Heck our mutual tolerance for Riddles, Traps and the assorted dungeon stuff is fairly small. We do Combat and Roleplaying mostly. The TROS sorcerer afaict is mostly a "behind the scenes" guy. While there is "buffing" magic and utility magic, the high price paid (a few months of life per adventure) and the limitations of the spell pool (1 decent spell per day unless you want to age) mean the Sorcerer isn't going to be on the front line for long.
Its a lot easier to act from the shadows and in fact a lot more likely given the rules and world situation in Weyerth that a Sorcerer would.

The makes the 'standard party" ala Tolkien or D&D pretty hard to do and takes most of playability of Sorcerous PC's out.


Quote


Now what's Mr. Hero going do.  He's all brave and all when it comes to crossing blades...now he's dealing with magic.  What game have you ever played where players would fear magic (and what it could do to their favorite character) as much as real people feared magic.  The inquisition and salem witch trials didn't condemn magic users because they feared a Web spell being cast.  Hell, the shear threat of knowing their favorite character might die at any time and there's nothing they can do about could turn your average player into a rabid witch hunter himself.  Imagine the great stories to be told as the great hero of the people succombs to paranoia and begins to participate in the burning of innocent people on suspicion of witchcraft...No amount of GM railroading could ever accomplish something so delicious...but with magic that is truely frightening players may well go down that road all on their own.



That isn't my idea of fun either. The way folks here keep talking about the glorys of witchhunts and killing PC's without giving them a chance "look he used conquer on that town guard who then killed the party in their sleep.Does he fear the inquisition, no because he is 2000 miles away.

I imagine a basic TROS Sorcerer with passion "Hates King Whoever" simply waiting  till the next tourney and calling a big (half ton) rock on the whole thing. 1 rock+50,000 MPH = no more king. The hell of it is, done right, he might not even age!

I have had dificulty trying to parse Sorcerers motivations into something that makes a good game.  Since you are hated and feared for what you are (outside of Gelure where you get respect at least) I would think that a Sorcerer would either long for acceptance (which means denying his very self) or hate in return. Neither lead to a very mentally healthy person

And there is the dying to get what you want problem too...
I use my powers and I age before my own eyes, joy....


OK OK we can go the 'searching for foci and formalized spells route" but why should a Sorcerer necessarily want to do this.  There isn't the kind of freedom in a fuedal society to allow people to do this, you can't make a l living as a Sorcerer and I really doubt Weyerth is crawling with traveling scholars (Penslingers if you like)
Helping people is pretty unlikley too as if you use your powers you will age and worse your neighbors will want you dead.

So what do you do?, A I see it you have three choices practice your craft in secret while living in fear, As Psycopompus suggested --use your powers to satisfy yourself (you can have any woman you want and getting gold is no real problem either), or make a grab for power from the shadows.

None of these IMO are very good options for player characters.  I suppose you could combine use option 2 to support adventuring.

 IMO none of the options are conducive to good campaigns.

Also a lot of charcters (again IMO) won't want anything to do with Sorcerers if only for the trouble they bring.

Just a few concerns of mine I guess,  As a Senechal I have to walk a fine line with my likely players and balance realism and gamablity. I am concerned that the Sorcerer "race" might not be a good fit with my players.

When I Senechal I will first try to use the rules as written in a logical fashion, If it provides a good result,  great I was wrong.

If it doesn't than I will try using them as plot devices---


  A mad Sorcerer and sculptor "Menahasi" has decided to wreak havok on the Nobility (Passion: Hate Nobilty 5, Drive:Vengance 5) after they did unspeakable things to the women he loved.
Gradually he travells the Kingdoms learning the ley of the land and making connections and stealing new bodies as needed

Soon his masterplot will unvieled, The Rain of Stones

Will the PCs learn of his plot in time to stop him or will Weyerth soon be in Ruins.....


If that doesn't work then I will try to get together with other TROS and make a magic system I like better or convert GURPS Spirits or Ron Edwards Sorcerer.

I love most of the system, its just the jury is still out on the magic
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Bob Richter
Member

Posts: 324


« Reply #43 on: June 04, 2002, 10:37:20 AM »

Quote from: Valamir
3 pages of quote for a 2 line response is a little much.

Thanks.


Er. Quite.

But the fact is that I'm just irrationally lazy.
:)
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So ye wanna go earnin' yer keep with yer sword, and ye think that it can't be too hard...
Bankuei
Guest
« Reply #44 on: June 04, 2002, 11:08:24 AM »

Quote
imagine a basic TROS Sorcerer with passion "Hates King Whoever" simply waiting till the next tourney and calling a big (half ton) rock on the whole thing. 1 rock+50,000 MPH = no more king.


In our current campaign of RoS something close happened....  A sorcerer decided he would fly in and shank the king with a spear.  Of course, there's better ways to use magic, but since it was a 13 year old boy on a power trip, strategy wasn't exactly his strong point.

Chris
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