[Obscure] First Thoughts

[northerain]

Alright...first thread for me here, I'm gonna try and describe my game idea and see if I can get some feedback for it. I started working on this rpg a few years back but i gave up after I realised the ideas weren't that original. Also, excuse my writting as I haven't been long in the Forge and I'm not familiar with the lingo. In any case, here goes.
General Description:
Players play supernatural/weird characters that usually have some kind of strange power. This can be anything from the ability to fly, having wings, beeing able to heal wounds, seeing through things, etc. There will be different character ''types''(12 or 24. Is this too much?) that define some characteristics and the way the character received his powers. I basically intend to let each player create a completely unique character, as far as powers go. I have no idea what kind of system this needs.

I want the game to be character driven, although I haven't figured out yet how this will work. The general idea is that the story the Narrator plays will be tailored to the characters history/goals and allow them to be at the helm of how the story plays out.
An idea I had is having some kind of fate system where the Narrator uses a tarot deck(or card deck) to create the story arc(while the ultimate decisions remain with him).

The Setting:
Will be ala World of darkness, meaning ''our'' world only a bit different than the world we know of. I'm considering some kind of steampunk setting, but as I said I'm more focused on the characters and the story itself than the setting. The setting and feel of the game will be rather dark and depressing, while at times the characters will be able to shine through their actions and adventures.

The System:
I have no idea at this point. I really liked alot of systems/ideas I've seen here at the forge and I'd love to use one of those or create something myself. I'm not really worried about the system at this time.

Where I am now:
I only have extensive notes written down. Most of them are different ''races/types'' of characters. Originally, I wanted players to be able to create anything without constraint but that didn't seem plausible. As it stands now, each type of character is about HOW the character received his powers. I've bulit a skill system but i scraped that so as it stands, I don't really have that much material.

Some questions/feedback requests:
1. I've noticed that alot of the games here on Forge are much ''simpler'' than what I'm trying to do. Most don't have races or types of characters and the setting is at the core of the game(unless I'm mistaken). That sounds alot more tidy than what I'm trying to make. Am I going about it the wrong way?

2. Although I have a clear idea of the game's feel and genre(dark/urban fantasy/horror), I feel that the way I describe the game doesn't really show that. I'm afraid that I won't be able to give the players/GM the ''right'' feel of the game. Any ideas on that?

3. Do you think it's possible to have a rpg where the story is mainly pushed forward by the players(meaning that they follow their character's goals or wishes)?

I think i'll stop now, I have alot more details and ideas but they'll have to wait till after I see what everyone thinks about these.

[Malcolm Craig]

Hi there,

Do you have a real name we can call you by? It's kind of the way of things round these here parts.

I'm kind of addressing your points backwards here, but here goes:

Do you think it's possible to have a rpg where the story is mainly pushed forward by the players(meaning that they follow their character's goals or wishes)?

Totally. If by that you mean that the players input to the story as much (or more than) the person taking the GM role does, then you'll find that's something common to a lot of games that are talked about and created round here. So, there are games where winning in a conflict gives a player the chance to tell the story of what happens. Other times, another person gets that chance: maybe they were the person that drew the highest card, or rolled the highest number on a certain kind of die. It depends a lot on the game being played.

So, in short, it's entirely possible to have a game such as this. You might like to think about the scope of what you want the players/GM to be able to do in the game, how much power to narrate things you want them to have. This leads into another question: what do the characters do in your game? Are they a group of freedom fighters defending the rights of their kind? Are they all part of a secret agency that must prevent knowledge of different races becoming public knowledge? What is it that ties the characters together and what is their role in the world?

A good, strong idea of what the characters will be doing is key to writing a game that will engage the participants (in my opinion).

Although I have a clear idea of the game's feel and genre(dark/urban fantasy/horror), I feel that the way I describe the game doesn't really show that. I'm afraid that I won't be able to give the players/GM the ''right'' feel of the game. Any ideas on that?

Well, why not descibe your feel for the game here? Can you sum up what it will be about in around 25 or so words? And how will the setting support what the game is about, how will it tie into the mechanics and so on? And reversing that, how do the mechanics support the setting and what it is about?

I've noticed that alot of the games here on Forge are much ''simpler'' than what I'm trying to do. Most don't have races or types of characters and the setting is at the core of the game(unless I'm mistaken). That sounds alot more tidy than what I'm trying to make. Am I going about it the wrong way?

There are a huge range of games talked about here on the Forge, so it's hard to make generalisations. Many games are strong on setting colour, while other provide only brief setting details (or none at all) but provide you with the tools to create setting entirely suited to the games you want to play. One thing I notice from your post is that you want to make ecah character unique, but have a whole bunch of pre-generated races. Now, I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but have you thought about giving the participants a free reign in creating their characters, with perhaps just a set of guidelines saying might or might not be permissable? You could certainly use the stuff you have created as examples though.

Finally, a tool that I've found very useful is the Power 19 set of questions. Put simply, it's a series of questions set up to challenge your ideas about what you want to create and allow you to give concrete answers about your game design. I've often found it very worthwhile.

Hope some of this is useful to you and I look forward to hearing your further thoughts.

Cheers
Malcolm

[northerain]

Hi there, thanks for the reply. My name is George btw.

A good, strong idea of what the characters will be doing is key to writing a game that will engage the participants (in my opinion).

I think this is my main problem. What i meant by character driven story arcs is that there is no central goal/conflict inherited in the setting or the character creation. Characters just are. They have absolutely no reason to do anything, except to fullfill their own goals/wishes. At least in my mind, since I'm not so sure this can ever work.

Well, why not describe your feel for the game here? Can you sum up what it will be about in around 25 or so words? And how will the setting support what the game is about, how will it tie into the mechanics and so on? And reversing that, how do the mechanics support the setting and what it is about?

I haven't figured out the setting yet. To just say ''oh it's like our world, only grimmer and grittier'' won't really do anything to describe what I'm aiming for. I guess this is where presentation come in. Artwork, prose and general descriptions will help here, but are they enough?

There are a huge range of games talked about here on the Forge, so it's hard to make generalisations. Many games are strong on setting colour, while other provide only brief setting details (or none at all) but provide you with the tools to create setting entirely suited to the games you want to play. One thing I notice from your post is that you want to make each character unique, but have a whole bunch of pre-generated races. Now, I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but have you thought about giving the participants a free reign in creating their characters, with perhaps just a set of guidelines saying might or might not be permissable? You could certainly use the stuff you have created as examples though.

You're right about that, I kinda meant some of the most popular/well known games(mostly Dogs in the Vineyard is what I was thinking about). I really love how the game is really focused on it's setting, characters and goal. I'm worried that my open-ended world will be largely ignored or will be too confusing or boring.
About the characters, I meant something like archetypes. Wild Talents does the same thing(although I just read that today and I haven't really understood all of it). Archetypes will dictate where your powers come from(and/or what powers are available), not the powers you have or the personality of the character. I think a too open-ended character creation system will leave the game looking like X-Men: the RPG.

I think I've covered everything. I've been looking at my old notes a lot today and found some archetype descriptions and the like. I'll post them if there's any interest.
I've seen the power of 19 QA but I'm not yet comfortable with answering those questions. I'm not entirely set on what the game will be about.
Thanks for the feedback!

/George

[priestofroadkill]

i like the idea of a steampunk setting, it's too forgotten these days, and we all know it's good.

maybe something urban, a little twisted, but still steampunk.

as an example:

a dying metropolis, once an industrial centre, now fallen due to lack of foresight on the behalf of a fascist regime.
maybe a revolution happened a good few years back.
this metropolis is on its last legs now, and has started "rusting" and distorting, allowing possible ways your characters could have come about, and is now practically the tattered ruins of a once successful industrial nation trying to just survive in the city that's so much different than how people say it once was.

just a thought.

     mark

[Mike Sugarbaker]

I've seen the power of 19 QA but I'm not yet comfortable with answering those questions. I'm not entirely set on what the game will be about.

It might be worth doing the Power 19 a little differently, then - using it as a brainstorming tool rather than something to nail yourself to the floor with. Answer the Power 19 a whole bunch of times, each time using a new possible version of your game, just making one up, choosing answers at random from within the bounds of what you know your game might be. Then when you're done, you have lots of alternate versions of your game, and maybe one (or more!) of them will jump out at you as really appealing.

[JasonWalters]

Will be ala World of darkness, meaning ''our'' world only a bit different than the world we know of. I'm considering some kind of steampunk setting, but as I said I'm more focused on the characters and the story itself than the setting. The setting and feel of the game will be rather dark and depressing, while at times the characters will be able to shine through their actions and adventures.

You've used phrases like "World of Darkness" and "dark and depressing," which leads me to believe that you might be thinking about creating a horror RPG. Have you given a lot of thought to what a horror RPG is, philosophically speaking? For example, are there going to be zombies, werewolves, vampires, demons, and the like in your setting? If so, what is their purpose?

Allow me to elaborate.  At one end of the horror RPG spectrum you have Dungeons and Dragons. It has zombies, werewolves, and so forth but they are generally obstacles to be overcome, rather than a source of psychological horror for the players. D&D certainly can be played as a horror game, but generally isn't. Which is fine:  a lot of people enjoy killing the undead or demons in such a game, taking their stuff, and becoming more powerful in the process. That could be the kind of game you build. 

Then you have a game like Vampire, which has a kind of cool subtext of "I've become a monster, now what do I do?" Most players answer with.... kill other monsters, take their stuff, and become more powerful! But the potential for exploring the Kafkaesque emotion of self-loathing is there, which is cool because RPGs should be about exploring emotions, moral conflicts, and different philosophical perspectives. That could also be the kind of game you build.

Finally, there is Call Of Cthulhu. A smarter man than I (Ken Hite) once told me that Call Of Cthulhu is the only truly moral RPG. Why? Because the characters are trying to save the world.... but, to do so, they must learn things that slowly drive them mad or kill them. Furthermore, since even knowing about "the things men should not know about" drives you mad, they can't tell anyone about what they're doing, lest they doom them too. All roads lead to doom (horror). So, in that game, ultimately the only reward the character gets is the knowledge that he has done the right thing.

That could also be the kind of game you build.... and, if you do, I will most certainly buy a copy!

[northerain]

I am aiming slightly towards that. I'm not doing a horror game per se, but the game is about trying to come to terms with being different in a world that's falling slowly apart. And where some really bad people and creatures are out to get you. But I mean, when playing a character than has hideous black wings and shoots acidic bile from his mouth, are you really sure that you're the good guy here?
I mention WOD a lot because for me, it was one of the first games that showed me that rpgs can be about more than killing stuff. Of course I've found other games since then, but I always loved WOD as a setting.
More or less, the game will be a cross between Mage: TA and Call of Cthulhu or Unknown Armies.

Oh and Mike, thanks for that idea, I'll try that today.

[Andy Kitkowski]

Hey George.  I hate to say, "Oh, did you check out this game?", but here I'm thinking, what the heck, you might get some inspiration:
http://www.evilhat.com/?dryh
Look around for info on this game, "Don't Rest Your Head".  Reading your first post, I was thinking, "Oh, this is like DRYH". Not saying 'Buy that Game' or anything, but if you read reviews on it, it might solidify in your head the direction you're taking for your game, and how it will differ from one like Don't Rest Your Head.

Also, "...but i gave up after I realised the ideas weren't that original."

Don't give up because you're not "Original"!  One of my favorite RPGs is about underdogs who hunt demons in contemporary America. I ran a Savage Worlds game about underdogs who hunt demons in contemporary America. Sorcerer is a game where you can play underdogs who hunt demons in contemporary Amerca. I'm *writing* a game about underdogs who hunt demons in contemporary America. :-)

In the end, once you have an idea for a direction for your game (and I too suggest using that "Power 19" on yourself: It will help shake loose cobwebs and think about the foundation of what you want to do with your game), start writing. I'd love to see which direction you go with this.

If you get a document together (or just a collection of setting and rule notes), PM me anytime: I'd love to go through it and give advice.

-Andy

[northerain]

I've seen Don't Rest Your Head and it looked like a really cool game. I guess I never saw the similarity because the theme of my game is different. Somewhat. But now you made me want to buy it and check it out .
I have some stuff up over at the RPG Lab, I can PM you the link if you like.

[joepub]

I  am aiming slightly towards that. I'm not doing a horror game per se, but the game is about trying to come to terms with being different in a world that's falling slowly apart. And where some really bad people and creatures are out to get you. But I mean, when playing a character than has hideous black wings and shoots acidic bile from his mouth, are you really sure that you're the good guy here?

This is beautiful, and it's part of the answer to "What do characters do?"

The case for why they might doubt themselves is pretty solid. hideous black wings, acidic bile, creatures of the night, hunted by other bad things... now I want, VERY BADLY, to know why they might believe in themselves.

And I have a thought on it too. Maybe the game is also about protecting certain things. This demon-winged beast actually guards people while they sleep, fights for the communist revolution, keeps thieves and brigands away from Lady Carlita, or keeps the streets free of demons at night.

Creating anchors and things worth protecting as part of character generation would be a REALLY cool way of drawing up the question "Are you really a good guy or not?"

About the characters, I meant something like archetypes. Wild Talents does the same thing(although I just read that today and I haven't really understood all of it). Archetypes will dictate where your powers come from(and/or what powers are available), not the powers you have or the personality of the character. I think a too open-ended character creation system will leave the game looking like X-Men: the RPG.

I disagree. I think you can remove archetypes and classes altogether and have players create their own beings without these limitations, without having them be disparate.

Here's the thing:

Think about all those classes you have. What things make them "fit" with your world and theme? What make them mesh with the setting and flavour?

Now, maybe it's "they draw power from a source they don't trust", or "they don't mean to hurt others but they must".

Whatever it is, ingrain that in characters, or have a character creation method that facilitates the players arriving at such statements about their own characters. You don't have to have an archetype tell them how they are a part of the world.

[northerain]

That was very insightful man. I actually considered at some point to make the character a type of gargoyle(though not associated with the mythic gargoyles at all) that was supposed to guard something/someone or had a specific purpose which may or may not be gone.

My idea for what the characters do was to use the kicker as a mechanic, but expand on it. On character creation, the player will come up with a kicker(together with the GM). This kicker will eventually continue to expand to engulf the character's goals and life. It will provide him/her with a reason to use his different nature to further his goals.

But you're right, maybe adding something like that in chargen will help alot. Not just having to protect something, but being able to choose a specific task the character has to achieve(something long term).

On the subject of archetypes, I'm still leaning for using them. The archetypes aren't classes or races. They basically provide a unifying background for a character. It tells of where his powers/nature really comes from(but leaving the how, why and what completely up to debate). I think the archetypes will provide an interesting backdrop to base games and stories on.

[joepub]

In that case, allow me to humbly suggest 3-6 as a good number of archetypes.

12-24 and you'll start to look like Feng Shui, where people have fun flipping between archetypes but chargen is essentially "choose one" and not "choose one and then develop a character".

[northerain]

3-6, isn't it a little too constricting? I was thinking of 12 as a maximum at the moment.

[Mike Sugarbaker]

I think what Joe's driving at is, the more archetypes you have, the more any two instances of the same archetype are going to resemble each other. The more vague and general your archetypes are, the more players are required to create their characters.

(I hate to drop in another omg-look-at-this-game note, but Nathan Paoletta's carry. a game about war is a great example, from a certain vantage point, of this sort of archetype use. He also uses them mechanically as the game goes forward, which is interesting - it makes changing who you fundamentally are a cogent part of the game, a it should be in a Vietnam game IMO.)

[joepub]

Mike hit my nail on its head, there.

If you have six archetypes, they can allow a lot of flexibility and possibility, rather than mad-gabs-forms.
I find d&d's  classes to be more and more constricting when you add in more and more supplements. With just the Player's Handbook, I can say "All right, my fighter is going to be a circus traveller, who has a banjo and a jester's cap, and he uses twin rapiers and a malicious grin to take down his foes".

But then someone says, "Actually, that'd be a Sadist Jester, as detailed in Complete Circus."

And:
a.) I feel like there are endcaps on my creativity in chargen, because you can't even take creative liberty with an archetype without it fitting better as a different archetype. In the end, you just say "Right, I'll be a fighter with power attack and a broadsword. my name will be Tommy."
b.) I feel frustration that I can't make Fighter "my own".
c.) Such a phenomenon encourages shopping  for a character rather than creating a character.

I would hope that with Obscure I'd flip through the archetype section and say "Holy shit, I could be a Bestowed! My power could come from Cthullu, and each time I use my powers I invite it into the world a little more. That'd be so dope."

Because Bestowed is a broad, general and abstract category that encompasses anyone that got their powers gifted.

That's different than: "Well, I suppose I could be a Demon Tainted, and that would kind of fit with my vision. I kinda want to play a character which acts as an avatar for Cthullu's self-insertion into our world. Hm, maybe Demon Embodied. No, I guess Demon Tainted. Well, it says here that I'd carry the marks of a demon but that it wouldn't actually be using me as a pawn. Whereas, Demon Embodied removes my mortal personality and REPLACES it with the demon's, and I don't exactly want that either. Shit, I guess demon embodied fits better, but isn't perfect."

The first example, with broader categories, gives me flexibility and creative control. It's a springboard that I use.

The second  example, with more focused categories, gives me options to pick from. Emphasis on "pick from", because it becomes just that.