Riddle of Steel is crap!

[Lance D. Allen]

Don't let the subject line fool you.. I still love this game as much as it is possible to, without having actually played it. Unfortunately, not everyone shares my enthusiasm. Here's the situation...

I have been trying to coax my group (I use the "my" loosely.. I barely feel a part of this group, but it's all I've got right now) to play TRoS on Thursdays, and it looks like my efforts might finally pay off. I've at least one player partially sold on it, and others who are willing to try it out. So I leave the book at one of their houses for a week (Oh, the separation anxiety!) so that they can look it over... Then comes last week's game, and I ask "So, what do you think?" His response (loosely quoted) is: "Bury it in the backyard next to your dead dog." OUCH! That is, far and away, the harshest denouncement of anything I've ever come across. He later goes on to say that the game rules are completely broken, and that trying to play it in the long-term will result in characters who are unbeatable and who fail at nothing (I bit back a response about D&D, the game we've *been* playing.. Some people can be touchy), and that it's not even suitable for short-term play.

My response was to, as loyally as I could, defend The Riddle of Steel. I can't say I fared well. My only basis for refuting his statements is that ya'll have been playing it for quite some time, so it can't be broken.. The response was a comment about people playing Amber for good long times, and that not stopping the game from being broken.. Having absolutely no knowledge of Amber, aside from similar comments from some individuals on these here boards, I was left without a leg to stand on.

So this means I don't have a group, right? Wrong. They're still willing to give it a shot, aside from the same person's additional comments that he doesn't feel that I personally have what it takes to pull it off. (This guy is usually mild-mannered and friendly, but this night was obviously his night to wear the Asshole hat).

So this is what I have to deal with. I want to play TRoS, I want to prove him wrong... But how am I to do this before such an onslaught? He personally, and likely everyone else there who heard the statements will be biased against the game to start, and the fact that my GM style is very likely to differ greatly from what this group is used to (added to the fact that I've not run anything in nearly a year) has got me rather intimidated. I think I'm up to it, and I know TRoS is up to it.. But how am I to show this off?

I know this is the sort of question that is usually answered with "Be more specific!" but honestly, I'm somewhat at a loss. I'm going to re-read the salient rules and setting information again, but other than that, I can think of little to prepare myself. Without ALL of the characters created already, I'm going to find it hard to create a beginning story which will involve them all, and I think, without some hook to get them invested and into the game right away, there might not be an occasion for another session.

So... Help?

[Bob Richter]

1) Ignore the idiot. He obviously has no idea what he is talking about and is probably a total DnD-head. He will start to get lonely after a while when all his buddies start playing a real FRPG, and will regret his hasty reaction.
Either that or he'll never play Riddle, but that's okay too. He is not worthy. :)

If you really want to make this point to him, have him put, in writing, why he believes the system is broken and/or worse than X (X being his favorite FRPG,) then E-mail it to me and I will show him (in writing) the error of his ways.

Eh. Or if you can handle it on the spot, just do that.

2) Relax. You'll do fine.

GMing isn't really that hard, something you'd remember if it hadn't been so long since you'd done it. :)

[Christopher Kubasik]

Hi Lance,

The first thing that comes to my mind is to make sure to take the pressure off yourself and the group of players.  To do this, don't set out right now to prove that the game can last a long time.  Just have fun for one night. (You hear me?  One night!)

Just a one-shot adventure, so you and the players can try it out.  If everybody has a good time playing it, they'll play it again.  That simple.

So, a) you're not out to prove RoS is great, b) you're not out to prove you're a great GM and c) you're not out to "fix" the opinions of anyone in the group. You're going to do a one shot adventure that's about having a good time.  That's it. The RoS rules will support you in that, not the other way around.

What should this scenario be?  I'd go with the words of The Man himself.  In the RoS adventure seed thread above, Jake wrote:

As I recall, you're looking for adventure ideas. Here's one I run with folks at demos. It's short, sweet, and gamist (I think...)

Start your characters out a caravan. They aren't chained up, but they are equipment-less and inside of a locked wagon (remember that scene from Dragonlance: DoAT?). Outside are Marmuluks (or whatever else fits your world/setting). They get to choose what to do, but be explicit inletting them know that they're off to be sold, and that the "point" is to get out and get home. Give them an SA reason to go home, like a lover or a king or something. It'll allow that to come into play as well.

Throw one or two other people in the wagon as well. Preferably at least one girl.

How do they get out? I've run this about 5 times, and I've seen swidling, lockpicking, board-breaking, singing, and all kinds of wierdness. Be sure to include a fight--preferably a duel or some other stuff. Let them sneak around the marmuluk camp at night killing sleeping guards...let them have a grudge against the caravan leader, or an amor for the caravan leader's concubine...

It's a pretty "cliche" old trick ("You wake up in the back of a prison wagon...what do you do?"), but hell if it doesn't work.

I think this is brilliant and is a perfect introduction to what the game has to offer.

Other thoughts spring to mind:

1) Listen, if the group really doesn't want to play... Just be careful. Don't set it up a challenge for yourself or RoS.  Make it clear you want to have fun, and you'd like to try it out the same way they'll be trying it out.  But listen -- if the vibe from one or more people is "I do this under duress," make it clear no one *has* to play.  Invite the folks who are interested and see what happens.

2) Make character creation a seperate event if possible.  Really allow everyone to get a feel for the rules and who their characters are at a relaxed setting independent of rushing to the game.

3) Don't hit everyone with all the rules right up front.  Here are some comments from Ron about introducing people to new games from the Two Hour Sessions thread in Actual Play

2) Identifying the distinctive features of the game and presenting conflicts that demand those features be used in play. This is a pretty general comment, and it's modified by the next point, but as a general rule, focus on (a) player-engaging issues provided by both character and setting, (b) especially fun or empowering aspects of the resolution system, (c) tactically-effective applications of the Currency, and (d) lots of equally-fun choices (ie give'em lots of room).

3) And yet, in full knowledge of #2, also realize that the purpose of short-session play is not to showcase all of the nuances of the system/game. If there's setting material that's not relevant to the game, don't go into a twenty-minute tangent monologue about how cool it is except that you aren't using it. (I've seen this.) Don't use the complex combat/etc options that rely on full knowledge of the basic system (e.g. TROS' maneuvers). Don't keep careful track of all Endurance/Fatigue type variables. For some kinds (notably D20), use a customized character sheet design that includes only the variables that will be tracked during play, or use a standard character sheet with areas blocked out.

You are primarily providing an opportunity for fun play, not a seminar on all the features of a given game.

4) Fun.  Remember fun.  And if you carry this desire for fun into all your interactions with other people as you're setting it up, it's going to help a lot.

5) If Cranky-Boy, or whomever, continues during character generation to make noises say, "Look Bob.... Let's make a deal.  Give it a chance. After we've played, we'll all talk about what we liked and didn't.  But until then, let's all play it as hard as we can, having the best time we can."

Anyway, Fun.

Take care,
Christopher

[Jake Norwood]

Agh! When I read the topic subject I just about died...had a conniption I tell you...

I'm gonna back up Chris on this one. Also, you're in the Pheonix area as IIRC, and we've sold about 15 or 20 copies via Imperial Outpost Games out there, so maybe just posting a note out there (I'm sure they have a group finder wall) would hook you up with several TROS gamers with a similar "problem" to yours.

As for the skeptic guy...I am normally very open to criticism, but I don't think I would have taken it from him--his approach didn't seem very balanced and looked more like he was "out to get" you or TROS or something... it was really too violent of an opinion considering his level of exposure.

Finally, make sure to run several mock combats with your guys before the first game, so that they get a feel for it. It's deadly, but not if you're smart.

Jake

[Lance D. Allen]

Good point, Jake. I intend to find someone to play TRoS with, even if this flops, so while I'm still worried, it's not like this is my only option.. Just currently my most convenient option.

And, FYI, it turns out that one of those 15 or 20 copies was bought by one of the players IN my group.. Unfortunately, he can't make it on Thursdays. He also seems to be one of the few gamers in the group that I can truly respect from an RP standpoint.. Which is probably bad of me, because the rest of them seem contentedly gamist, which isn't a *bad* thing, no matter my personal feelings on it.

Well, I'm gonna try it. I've done a little preparation work to speed things along, so hopefully things should be alright. Thanks for the suggestions and good luck.

[Christopher Kubasik]

Hi Lance,

One more, somewhat blunt, thought:

There's the guy you want to play with who can't make it the same night as the other people you're not crazy about playing with?

Hmmmmm.

What if you and he switched to another night that he can make it on, and see if anyone wants to come play in the game you two guys want to play.  I mean, then you'd be setting precedent for the kind of game you want to play.

As Ron puts it, none of this is like having to go to High School.  We choose to do this.  Why not do it exactly the way you want?

Take care,
Christopher

[Blake Hutchins]

What Christopher says.  Aside from the additional persuasive effect of a sympathizer/ally, you're likely to have more *fun* with someone who is also enthused about the system.

Best,

Blake

[Lance D. Allen]

It's a matter of availability, mostly. I only have certain nights off. The only night he can get off to game at a decent time is Fridays, which is established D20 night. He's good for Saturdays, I'm not. I work nights, so about the only time I can game is on my days off.

As for the rest of the group, they're pretty good guys, even the guy who spouted off about TRoS. I'm not particularly enthused about playing with the group because the group plays D&D, and plays it the way it's designed to be played.. And that doesn't jive very well with me. I play anyway 'cause it's better than playing nothing, and I do manage to have fun despite myself, and despite the group's tendencies, sometimes. I just think that more fun could be had away from D&D which almost everyone has a good amount of the standard gripes with, but it seems that we play it because it works for everyone, due to that whole... familiarity thing.

As for finding other gamers, the time will come, but it is not yet... A car will make the seeking considerably easier, methinks... Anyone know anyone selling a fairly reliable used car in the Phoenix area? ::smirks:: Just kidding.

[Clinton R. Nixon]

Lance,

This sounds really bad, but:

- You've got someone interested in RoS.
- He's got a night off to play, which is d20 night.
- You don't like playing d20 with these people.

Hm. I don't see the problem. Grab the guy, find one more if you can - and you should be able to - and play RoS instead of d20. Good to go.

[Ron Edwards]

Hey Lance,

I swear I'm not just drumming up hits on my page ... this really old discussion Sorcerer mailing list archives was the starting point for a lot of people currently at the Forge. The real meat starts about five posts into the discussion.

I'd be very interested in what you think of it.

Best,
Ron

[Valamir]

Christopher's right on.  In the field of specific suggestions I'd offer these.

It sounds from your post that these guys probably know D&D front and back and know the rules in their sleep.  There is a steep learning curve for RoS.  Be prepared for that and recognize that certain difficult players are likely to use the "difficulty" of the rules to snipe at you.  Don't rise to that bait...you can't win.   Sooo.

1) Definitely have a seperate session for character creation.  Put the kybosh on highly creative unusual characters.  Explain that you want to play RoS a while first to determine if its something the group wants to pursue more long term and the best way to evaluate the game is to keep the characters fairly simple so everyone can concentrate on evaluating the game itself (not how well it handles bizarre character background #614.

2) NO SORCERERS  at all period.  Not even NPCs.  The learning curve for the combat rules is steep enough without adding the magic learning curve on top of it.  Remember you don't want to be in a position where you need to look a bunch of stuff up...especially not if your trying to refer to the new revised magic rules.  The cries of "see it is broken if it needs errata already" is just not worth it.

3) Polish off the character creation session with some staged player on player duels with the characters they just created.  Explain that this is not part of the game.  They can think of it as flashing back to training bouts they had in their past and can imagine the PC they're fighting as just being some unknown sparring partner if their backgrounds wouldn't allow for them to be together.  Damage is not real, its all just practice, yada, yada.  Point being, get them familiar with the RoS combat mindset well before putting them in a situation where they're character's lives actually depend on it.  Let them learn how their maneuvers work, let the light start to dawn during these boughts that its their decisions that will determine the outcome of the battle more than die rolls and relative skill.

4) Keep the initial scenario very simple, as Christopher suggested.  Make it clear that this is to break everyone into the game.

5) Know the rules inside and out.  It sounds like certain players are going to be looking for ways to gig you.  Don't make it easy for them.

[Christopher Kubasik]

Hi All,

I know we discourage, "Good Point!" posts around here, but I gotta.

Clinton is right for saying I'm right.

Listen, Lance.  Here's the deal.  If I knew someone who wanted to play the really cool game I wanted to play, and he seemed like the kind of guy I would want to play with... as opposed to the group of guys that was at least around playing a game I didn't care about...  I would make the game happen wiht that guy.

I mean that literally. Right now I'm tapped out on who to play with...  And you actually found someone you want to play with and play the game you want to play with?  And you're passing on it?  

Listen, I know this isn't like you're turning down a date with Jennifer Connelly -- but game wise, here we are.  

Don't take what's at hand.  Make happen what you actually want.  Why live any other way in any aspect of your life.

Take care,
Christopher

[Lance D. Allen]

Clinton,

I can't just decamp and take the other guy with me... 'cause he wouldn't come. He likes D&D too, and he likes the group.

Ron,

I read the whole exchange, and while it does make sense, (though it seems a little mercenary to me) I still can't do it. I'm the malcontent, I am the outsider in this group. I couldn't count on the friend who is my "in" to the group to come with me if I decamped. He enjoys the games just the same as the rest, and he's got a lot more invested in the group than just Friday-night D20. This same group is also the core of the Phoenix-based EQ guild he's a member of (EQ... HISS!) the SCA Household he's a member of, and pretty much his main circle of friends. Besides hanging with them, he works and tries to live a life which includes a quasi-daughter and a fiancee. Me... I hang out with them because a) overall they're a good bunch, despite my beefs with how they like to game, b) I don't have any other friends with which to share my hobbies, excepting those I have here online, c) I think there's potential in the group for more than I've seen, and d) I'd rather play a bad RPG with a few good points than not game at all.

It does have it's good points, or else I'd have left already. I overall really like these people (except the DM for our primary D&D game {we just started a second game which will alternate with our primary on D20 fridays}) and think that I could get in and have fun with them, in almost all venues (except EQ... NEVER!!!!).

So... all that aside... I'm going to try to get the TRoS game going. I called my friend today to see what's what, and he said a few things which are encouraging, passed on from Lonnie, who is quite obviously the lead element of this group. So I think things might just go well. I'll keep things simple (although I've already said I'll allow a single sorcerer, and I hate to renege on my word, so if someone wants the role, they'll get it) and I'll concentrate on the fun... More than that, I can't do, and I suppose I really shouldn't have to.

Thanks for the support though. I really do appreciate it.

[Bankuei]

I'm sorry to hear about your logistical difficulties.  Personally, I just go ahead and  play what I want, provided I can get two other folks to play with me.  If your friend doesn't want to play, fine.  He can complain how broken it is without ever having played it.  I've learned that you can't convince someone to like a flavor that they won't try(or if they have, didn't like), and you can't fight someone else's ego(viewpoint).

If you want advice on how to win an opinion war, or how to open minds, good luck.  If you ever solve the Riddle of Thought, you'd be able to make world peace :P

Chris

[Rattlehead]

I realize that my "advice" may be a bit late, but you never know who might benefit from it, so here goes...

First, I'd like to state my agreement with a couple of previous tips.

A: Make it clear that while you had said you'd allow one sorcerer, you'd much prefer to avoid magic until later on.

B: Use duels to get everyone aquainted with the combat system. In fact, you might want to come up with some pre-generated characters to let your group pick from and use those for duels. That way, when it comes time to create the characters that they are going to actually play with, they'll know a bit more about how the character creation process will affect the character in play.

Now, to add my own idea to the mix. Roleplay - a lot. I don't know where your group lies on the scale between roleplayers and roll-players, but you should try to focus on the story and character aspects of the game session rather than the rules. This seems like an obvious statement, but if you think about it, sometimes we focus too much on the rules of the games we play. The rules are just a vehicle for skills and combat resolution, really. The story and the characters are the important part. An excellent gaming session can be (and often is) one in which no combat takes part. If you can play 90 - 100 percent of the session without opening the book, you've done something right. If you can play a whole session using your dice only for skill resolution (and the like), then it was probably a good, story-driven, character-driven session. I know, I know... you've got to have combat in there sometimes. I'm also aware that some players crave the thrill of battle more than others. But, if a combat encounter doesn't advance the storyline, or otherwise add to the roleplaying aspects of the session, then it probably shouldn't be taking place.

Also, try to get the players emotionally involved with the characters in the game. If they get choked up when an NPC ally get's whacked, you're on the right track. They've got to connect on an emotional level with their own characters, with your NPCs, and with the emotional content of the story. Otherwise, they're just going through the motions. Focus on things like... the sadness of an impoverished family of peasants (really describe the smudged and tear-streaked face of the peasant child)... the romance of a grand knight and his fair-lady-type.... the swell of pride a PC feels at the sight of his homeland's banner flying high.... the shock of adrenaline they feel when they hear that "odd sound" just beyond the firelight....

There's a lot you can do to drag them into it. You know these people (at least, better than I do). Think about what makes them tick, then use that to get their attention in the game.

As I said, this is fairly obvious stuff, but sometimes you have to stop and actually think about it to make use of it.

Hope this is helpful, even if it's after your deadline...

Brandon