looking for feedback for a fantasy 'online gamebook'

[Monkeys]

My unfinished project is more of a gamebook than a pen-and-paper role-playing game, so you might feel that it's outside of this site's brief - but anyway, here it is:

www.ageoffable.net

any feedback, on either the game mechanics or the writing, would be very helpful.

Thanks,
James.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi James, and welcome to the Forge!

Your game is eligible to discuss here, at least at this point I say so. However, my concern right now is that "any feedback?" is not a permissible way to begin your thread. This is a discussion site, and by posting a thread, you're the discussion leader and must provide context and starting issues for everyone else.

So - what do you want feedback about? Is there a particular section in which the writing matters a lot to you? Or a particular feature of the mechanics which you invented because no other game you encountered did it right? Open up a little bit about why and how you did it this way.

Good discussions don't come from "gee, what do you think," but from you letting everyone see why you made the game a certain way. Then people who agree with those points can really help you, or others can help you look at those points from a different angle.

Best, Ron

[Monkeys]

OK - some design goals that I had:

• I wanted to have character classes that were common in popular culture, but weren't common in fantasy RPGs (perhaps because they're not basic options in D&D) - that's why there are pirates, fairies, and courtesans.
• I wanted to have non-human races as classes: like in Basic D&D, you can be a Dwarf or a pirate, but not a Dwarf pirate, because I thought that was closer to how non-humans are treated in literature/people's thoughts.
• I wanted to overcome a problem that I've found with gamebooks, which is that if you've completed half of the book and 'died', and start again, you'll spend a fair bit of time going through bits that you've thoroughly worked out already. In other words I wanted to try and make the 'time until I get to a new part' as low as possible.
• I wanted the mechanics to be as simple as possible, especially combat. Obviously this is easier for a gamebook than for a pen-and-paper game, because you'll never get an unexpected situation.

[Monkeys]

Another one I've just thought of - I wanted the world to be based on fantasy writing, movies and TV in general, rather than on 'Lord of the Rings via D&D'.

[Ron Edwards]

Huh ... those are really interesting, actually. The one I'd like to know more about is the bit about dying and not having to start all, all over.

Here's my suggestion: can you post about how that's worked out in actual play? Right here is OK for this thread, although ordinarily that could go nicely in the Actual Play forum. But hey, we're here, I'm interested, and I'm the moderator so I'm decreeing it's all right.

Best, Ron

[Monkeys]

Huh ... those are really interesting, actually. The one I'd like to know more about is the bit about dying and not having to start all, all over.

Here's my suggestion: can you post about how that's worked out in actual play? Right here is OK for this thread, although ordinarily that could go nicely in the Actual Play forum. But hey, we're here, I'm interested, and I'm the moderator so I'm decreeing it's all right.

Best, Ron

If you die it really is 'the end', and you have to start again. What I meant was, most gamebooks are pretty linear - you go to A, then B, then C, then D. If you die at D, you have to go through A, B and C again. Although you can choose different options, pretty soon you'll work out the best options, and so after several tries - especially if getting through D is a matter of random chance - you could easily spend the first 15 minutes of a gamebook going through bits you've already completely solved.

What I wanted to do, instead of that, was have A lead to either B, C, D... so that if you go to A, then B, then die, next time you might go from A to D. You might die again, but you'll get to 'explore' new areas of the game pretty quickly, which was the part I liked most about gamebooks.

I've tried to have multiple starting points as well, but that's one of the many things I haven't implemented as completely as I'd like.

[Monkeys]

The other way I try and acheive this is by having the results based heavily on your attributes, so that even if you've been to a particular place before, you won't necessarily know the best option for the character you're currently playing.

[Callan S.]

So it's sort of a choose your own adventure format?

Couldn't going from A to D rely on player knowledge somehow? Like the path to D is available at A, but you have to turn  the suffed parrot around on it's pedistal, then play chopsticks on the piano and the door to D opens. You find out these tricks during B and C.

That said, if it's a game book - why are you imagining people not cheating and just continuing if they die? Certainly you don't like going through the bits you've already figured out, so that's a fairly strong incentive to just cheat. Is there something important about going through the experience right from the start and genuinely experiencing the books contents as the author intended? Rather than shortcuts to D, perhaps we could focus on that genuine experience and what it requires?

[Monkeys]

That said, if it's a game book - why are you imagining people not cheating and just continuing if they die? Certainly you don't like going through the bits you've already figured out, so that's a fairly strong incentive to just cheat. Is there something important about going through the experience right from the start and genuinely experiencing the books contents as the author intended? Rather than shortcuts to D, perhaps we could focus on that genuine experience and what it requires?

It's not really a book, it's a php website with the format of a book.

[Callan S.]

Ah, gotcha. I notice you didn't mention the 'play chopsticks on the piano to skip to D' idea - no good? It was just a wacky example, it can be something that makes sense in and fits with your story. Though of course it's there entirely for metagame reasons. Is it being so metagame an issue?

[Callan S.]

I just tried the game out. I lost my way - I thought I was making choices toward something at first, a goal for the game. Found after playing awhile there wasn't one given, so kind of started seeing all choices as equal - with them all being the same, I started making them at random really.

Couldn't say playing out a character was something I delved into either - like I tried to find a cure for the frog, but the game doesn't care about why I did so, or continuing the story in some way that might help examine why I'd help a little slimeball frog. Also the 'fight' where your humilated - basically I could see an opportunity to make a choice (and stop), but my character keeps going and putting on the ridiculous clothes then heads into the arena - I can see I'm not supposed to be in charge in that way.

Liked it at the start, in that odd sensation state when your mostly in a window shopping mode and finding out the format of the product "Ah, run into a unicorn straight away - then a frog who's really a man'. Perhaps it was when I hit the mundane choices that it flopped and I started looking for a goal for the game, or character portrayal play. Because looking for work or begging as choice, for example, doesn't tell me anything about the product as a whole - it's just minutae (so I can't window shop anymore - it's telling me nothing about itself). Or if it is important, it does tell me about the product - that it's going to be about scrounging for jobs (so again window shopping ends because I know what it's like now)

Anyway, on reflection of play, I switched out of window shopping mode at some point and started looking for a goal/character portrayal opportunities. I think this is why it happened.

[Daniel Davis]

At least as I found the game presented, I found it hard to find a way to protagonize my character. I didn't really know what the goals or themes of the game were, and I didn't know anything about the setting; and, having little knowledge of the mechanics, I found that putting effort into actually making a custom character would involve more time than I was willing to invest.

I had a similar reaction to the choices presented me as did Callan above. I don't have goals given to me, and I don't know enough about the setting to construct my own. So all choices seem equivalent.

Now, I think the idea is really interesting; and, as soon as I read about it on this thread, I trotted off to play it. So you've got some serious power working for you, I think, at least on the level of a pure concept: Choose Your Own Adventure - But With Dice, Stats, and Advancement!

Perhaps you intend to fill in some of these gaps at a later time; and so my criticisms may not be exactly to the point.

[Simon C]

Ok, I've played for a while now, and I'm getting a bit frustrated.  I'm going around in circles, running out of shells.  It seems like there's not much your character can do (at least early in the game) to influence the world.  Many of the choices made seem kind of meaningless, in that once the scene is finished, they don't influence anything. 

I think it's also a poor choice to be able to permanently lose Heroism, and other stats. I found that frequently my character was regressing, rather than advancing, which is annoying.

The most satisfying elements of play for me were when I felt like I was making choices that would affect the game.  Turning Owryth human again was cool, but I felt like it didn't mean anything after it was done.  Also, why couldn't my character wish for anything for himself?  I also liked it when some choice I'd made a while back turned out to be relevant after all.  The Prince turning up to reclaim his shells validated my choice not to spend those shells.  That sort of thing is cool.

I think what would help me enjoy this game is a more clear sense of progress, of movement through a story.  There are lots of ways you could do this, but I think a neat one would be if, at character creation, you could select from a list of "goals" for your character.  It would be cool if the options were different for different character classes.  In my head I was imagining my troll searching for a way to become human, but I knew that was probably never going to happen.  If I could select that as a goal at the start of the game, I'd enjoy that. 

Another thing I thought about was trying to impliment "Keys" (as seen in Clinton Nixon's "The Shadow of Yesterday"), as a mechanic for advancing the character, and creating "story".  I can see that being a huge task, but potentially making for a revolutionary game.

You mentioned implimenting different starting points in the game.  This would be awesome to me, and would create what I think is the most important thing here - meaningful chpoices which affect not just the outcome, but the nature of the game.

[Monkeys]

Ah, gotcha. I notice you didn't mention the 'play chopsticks on the piano to skip to D' idea - no good? It was just a wacky example, it can be something that makes sense in and fits with your story. Though of course it's there entirely for metagame reasons. Is it being so metagame an issue?

It actually does that to some extent - you can't look for a cure for the frog until you meet the frog, for example. But that's still a linear progression, just 'in disguise': start at A, go to B, collect something, come back to A, then take the choice at A that you didn't have before, is still a series of steps, just less obvious than if it was start at A, go to B, go to C, finish at D.

So the answer is, I do think it's a good idea, and intend to implement it, but don't think it's an alternative to a linear quest.

[Monkeys]

Is it being so metagame an issue?

Not really - something I haven't put in yet is a machine, which turns out to be a Plot Device.