[ENOCH] Indy game needs love

[ChadDubya]

Hello all,

I've done my fair share of lurking here, but this is my first post.

I have recently completed my rpg ENOCH and am ready to share it with the world. It can be downloaded for free at
www.enochrpg.com/wiki

(It's an 11mb pdf right now, so bare with the minute or two it takes to download. It will be reduced in size soon).

I felt that it would be appropriate to share the game with The Forge because it was a zero-budget indy project done with love for the hobby at large. I would love any comments, questions, or criticisms on the games system, setting, prose, or illustration. Thanks!

Here is a promotional blurb:

-

Bloodied ziggurats. Immortal beasts. AI gods. Sleeping colossi.
Gene cults. Plague bogs. Jungle demons. Fledgling societies
cling to life in a time of chaos. Salvation is buried in Hell's
corridors, and the barons of Heaven watch the world's woe with
silent indifference. Welcome to Enoch.

A thousand years have passed since the fall of man. In that time,
nature has flourished to prehistoric levels. Rising oceans and
creeping jungle have buried a long dead civilization. However,
not all that was buried is dead. The underworld bustles with
electric life, thrall to a pantheon of machine gods. Demons, the
ancient slaves of man, toil leagues underground. Driven mad by
failing power and frayed circuit, they claw their way to the
surface, to the peril of their old masters.

Above ground, fear and oppression shackle man. Millennia of
progress have been washed away. Living hopeless lives with
one-dimensional needs, the masses cling to authority and
religion. Most would happily, even greedily serve as enforcers
of a brutal regime or as acolytes of a twisted cult. It is better to
obey than be cast out from society, prone to the horrors that
stalk the wilderness.

Enoch is the story of man starting over in a world that has not
forgotten his sins. Who will be the heroes of this Second
Genesis, and who will vanish from history into shrieking
oblivion?

Enoch is a complete role-playing game featuring
unique game mechanics, a robust setting, and dozens of illustrations
by the author. Players will explore a mythical twist on the
post-apocalyptic genre, where Mad Max meets William Blake.

[Filip Luszczyk]

Hi Chad, and welcome to the Forge!

It sounds neat. My interest is rarely picked by such promotional blurb, but this has a nice sound to it.

However, is there any particular sort of feedback you need?

(BTW, page 2 and index are unreadable to me on my machine due to the background, and on the character sheet, the game's title covers stuff. Dunno if it's just a problem of my viewer, or something is actually wrong with the document.)

[ChadDubya]

Filip, thank you for the welcome and the heads up on technical issues (though .pdf has been fine on many machines, it is still a work in progress, requiring a bit of work).

To answer your question, I am not looking for any specific feedback, but will graciously accept any and would be happy to discuss it right here at The Forge. My intent at this point is simply to share the game with fellow gamers. Thanks for the look!

[Filip Luszczyk]

Chad,

Generally, it's difficult to discuss things here in First Thoughts without having a more narrow topic or more specific questions. Also, the thread will soon drown in the sea of other games' threads, especially without any discussion, so it's not the best place for sharing. But then, Forge is a community focused on development rather than promotion.

Your game seems to be developed enough to be (at least somewhat) playable, so I'd rather suggest posting an AP report in Actual Play or Playtesting.

Or, if you need outside playtesters you could head to Connections and start a recruitment thread. Chances of getting an outside playtest that way are not great, but you can just as well try it out.

Or, if your game is already after some substantial period of playtesting and you feel there's not much to change at this point, you could try posting about it on Story Games or rpg.net, as these places are probably better for generating interest. It might be easier to share your work with fellow gamers that way. (On the other hand, it's an open sea, so one needs to navigate carefully there.)

[Jason Morningstar]

Welcome!

A great way to spur some conversation and questioning would be to describe a play session, maybe highlighting things that went right and (especially) things that didn't go the way you wanted them to.  If there are specific things you want to address about your design, you'll get a much better response if you just lay them out as direct questions. 

[ChadDubya]

Thanks for the tips, guys, and I will explore those other avenues for promotions sake. But while I'm right here, I might as well talk shop a bit.

Enoch uses what I call the Sphere System. Spheres are basically stats and skills wrapped into one. The idea is that any action a character might take (that's worth rolling for) can be represented by combining any two Spheres. The Spheres are:

Combat
Medicine
Cunning
Technology
Presence
Conviction
Lore
Survival

Each Sphere is ranked 1 thru 10, so you combine two Spheres and roll a D20 equal to or less than the sum of those two Spheres to succeed.

Some examples of skill checks:

Melee Attack: Combat + Survival
Resist Torture: Conviction + Survival
Seduction: Presence + Cunning
Shooting a firearm: Combat + Technology
Recognizing a critter: Survival + Lore
Tracking a critter: Survival + Cunning
Treating a stab wound: Medicine + Combat

The Spheres were chosen in response to a question: in any society (in this case, a post apocalyptic one) what types of people are there? Soldiers, Healers, Politicians, Criminals, Scientists, Teachers, Wisemen... you can pretty much see how these categories translated into Spheres.

(For reference, the sphere system is discussed starting on page 34 of the .pdf)

My question is: are these 8 traits enough? If my intention is to create a traditional role-playing game (Stats, Skills, GMs, EXP, etc) is the audience for that type of game going to be content with these 8 traits? Or might they need more knobs to turn? Additionally, does a limited scale of improvement, for a limited number of traits, force campaigns to be short? These spheres are the backbone of the system. While they play-tested great (admittedly, only 2 sessions), I'd like to hear if they seem fundamentally broken in any way.

[Jason Morningstar]

Are you defining specific combinations, or is that up to the participant?  For example, I could make a good case for treating a stab wound with Medicine + Lore. 

Similarly, what does technology have to do with shooting a firearm?  You can teach a caveman to point and pull the trigger.  Cleaning and maintaining, not so much, but the actual shooting bit seems like it would involve another sphere - conviction seems like a good one ot me, because it's serious business.  But cunning or survival might work ... you see what I mean? 

My suggestion would be to strongly differentiate the spheres and then let participants decide which to implement, and how.

It seems like you might run into trouble with two 1-10 scores that are combined, in that you'll have the potential for characters at either extreme (constant failure/constant success) in certain combinations.  That's something to consider.

[ChadDubya]

Jason, thanks for the reply.

To answer your first question, combinations are entirely up the GM. To address your issue with technology (which I think is legitimate): While Enoch is at its core a science-fiction setting, game events take place 1000 years after man was nearly eradicated. That is, after man crawled back out of the cave he hid in during that time. In Enoch, technology has a certain stigma about it. It's almost magical, and to the simple, scared people of Enoch, those who delve into technology are akin to demon worshipers. Of course, this notion is justified to them (if you happen to read the sections on Sorcery, Drones, or Demons, you'll understand).

In terms of a system that more closely represents reality, I agree with you 100% on your assertion. However, it was my intent to place that special emphasis on technology.

[Jason Morningstar]

OK, making a considered choice that supports the setting (guns and technology) is great.

How come the GM gets to decide what spheres are appropriate?

[ChadDubya]

Heh, well, there are a couple reasons for that, though none are glamorous.

First and foremost,  this is a new system with very little play-testing under its belt (so far). I am counting on GM fiat to smooth out any jarring rules or discrepancies.

Secondly, with the intent on keeping the game as small as possible, I thought it would be best if I did not specify the possible combos (except for a few, to ensure that each sphere gets the spotlight, and the reader is grounded in how they work). I am hoping that in explaining the idea of spheres, GMs would be able to intuit what spheres to use in what scenarios.

Lastly, while players should be part of the decision process, I am weary of letting them make the final call. An enterprising player could make the case that nearly every roll he ever makes is somehow linked to his high rated sphere. Again, I am counting on the GM in this situation.

[Jason Morningstar]

An enterprising player could make the case that nearly every roll he ever makes is somehow linked to his high rated sphere.

That's engaged, active play, and rather than design around it, I think you should encourage it.  If a player pushing the system as hard as possible causes it to fail or become less fun, that's not the player's fault.  I recognize that one can push too hard, but that's just being a dick.  There's no percentage in designing to protect your game from dicks. 

I'd agree that right now, from what you've described, every player is going to be strongly incentivized to use their optimal combination of spheres in every conflict.  I'd challenge you to revisit your design and see if you can make changes that will alter that behavior if you don't think it is positive.

[Jason Morningstar]

Oh, by the way, two points:

1.  "Mad Max meets William Blake" is the best tag-line ever.  Let that be the beacon to which you constantly aspire!
2.  If my comments stray into unhelpful territory, please let me know.  I've got my own biases and opinions which may not be relevant to what you are after.

[ChadDubya]

I agree with you about active, engaged play. Also that if it fell apart under pressure, its the rules, not the player. Enoch does put a lot of responsibility on the GM to make sure things run smoothly. I guess I consider Enoch to be a "traditional" rpg in terms of its GM/PC relations.

I'm not really worried about stunting a player's engagement. I like to think of the current GM/PC dynamic in Enoch as having "Checks and Balances." While the GM is the final arbiter of what may and may not happen, PCs are able to automatically succeed at physical feats by burning Physical fatigue, and retry any failed roll by burning Mental fatigue.

Were I to edit or add to the core rules, I see one easy fix: specify in the rules what combinations are used for what tasks. I could add one page after the index listing a 100 or so suggested combos. It might also give the GM & PCs a reference point when deciding on combinations. Do you think such a page would be helpful? Or might it grate on GM's who have different notions of what the Spheres should do?

[Jason Morningstar]

I don't think such a list is necessary.  I'd include relevant combinations in examples of play, maybe some unusual ones to illustrate the potential diversity of interpretation, and let it go at that. 

[Eric Provost]

Hiya Chad.

At first glance, Enoch looks nice.  Very straight forward.  Plenty of classic RPG structure and assumption.

The one thing that I'm not seeing, and I wish the text had right there for me to find, is a short paragraph telling me why I want to play it.  I mean, in a nutshell, what's awesome about Enoch?  Like, in D&D (any iteration) I get to kill monsters and take their stuff.  Or, in Call of Cthulhu, I get to discover evil cults moments before either being eaten by a god or turning gibbering insane.

What do I get to do in Enoch?