The Product I thought of while thinking about Indie RPG products

[TwoCrows]

Greetings,

After days of lurking, reading, and ruminating (...and certainly there's enough material here that an admission of only having barely skimmed the surface should be a forgivable sin...) I've chosen to delurk with my First Thoughts, which I will concisely share momentarily.

I'll leave the gaming history, and experience to a minimum. Leave it to say that like many of you, I started playing before polyhedral dice were available to gamers, and I've played regularly ever since.

Although I've played a wide variety of games, some now extinct, rubbed elbows with all sorts of gamers, and been a flame-retarded participant on UseNet for a number of years, I have to admit that I totally missed not only the rec.games trunk, but the "Gaming Theory Movement" as a whole. (For those that care, I spent all my time in the alt.religion corner.)

While I'm fascinated, and inspired by Gaming Theory as presented here at The Forge, I have to admit that I'm a noob to the jargon, but NOT the notions, and conotions they seem to speak to. So, without further ado (...or maybe that's adieu depending upon how many forum rules I've just broken...) my concise RPG product first thoughts are:

I'm lucky perhaps to be involved with a big, I mean really big box Marketing Research Firm. While I won't name it, if you've ever watched TV for more than 30 minutes in your life, chances are you've heard of one of its many branches. How does this relate to RPGs, Game Theory, or Indie RPG? Well, there's only a couple of RPG related Marketing Surveys available on the web to get a grasp of the industry, and all of them have little direct data relating to the Indie RPG Movement, or its products.

So, how interested do you think Indie/Small Press RPG designers, producers, and distributors (likely all the same cat from what I gather) would be with involving themselves with the creation, implementation, and benefits provided by a comprehensive survey of the Gaming Community, designed with their interests specifically in mind?

Oh, and this would be the work of an aspiring Indie game designer, and not the big box marketing research firm afore-not-mentioned.

En To Pan!
Two Crows

[Paul Czege]

Hi,

I'd be very curious what you think the surveyors are truly after from this:

http://www.gamesurvey.org/

To me it seems rather skewed at finding ways for companies to make more money from gamers, rather than at understanding their psychology or values.

How would your vision of a survey for the indie community differ?

Paul

[TwoCrows]

Hi Paul,

Thanx for a reply; I had concerns that this wouldn't interest anyone nearly as much as it does me.

As to the "Games Research Project," I'd have to do a little digging with acquaintances at OSU to get any sort of real skinny, but from what I see this survey was likely constructed for two primary goals: 1) Dr. David's Departmental Agenda, and 2) To afford a marketing strategy tool to GAMA, and The Wargamer, both of which you rightly deduced have commercial interests at stake.

Oh, since this is dubbed a "research project," there may be grant money involved, aside from the obvious sponsorships, particularly on the social sciences end of the spectrum.

The real telling feature in all of this is who exactly is paying for the deliverable data sets. Marketing Research deliverables are more often than not massaged data, which is then used by the client's own number crunchers in their marketing, and R&D strategies.

This one is a prime example of the sort of work most clients are going to pay for –
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/br/br20010323a

How the Survey I propose would differ from a typical marketing tool is that it would be designed by, and for Indie/Small Press Clients, of which I count myself by virtue of immediate aspirations to enter the industry.

Essentially, those involved in how it's put together would determine what sorts of data they want, what sorts of questions they'd be interested in asking the Gaming Community. Those contributing to the design of the survey would naturally have their own agendas. Perhaps they'd like to know how their Game Theories have impacted the Gaming Community, or maybe they'd prefer data that speaks to their commercial, distribution, or marketing concerns. Maybe it would afford some game designers very specific data related to various game mechanics, character advancement schema, etc.

Maybe this might help. The idea for this endeavor hit me as I researched the very niches I want to fill with my own products, and the paucity of information I'm left with by having never attended large game cons, or spending the sorts of time you fine gents have getting to know your market through attending those cons, running your game for potential customers, or Ashcanning, etc.

En To Pan!
Two Crows

[TwoCrows]

I'd be very curious what you think the surveyors are truly after from this:

http://www.gamesurvey.org/

I took this survey. It contained a number of questions that could yield data interesting to game designers. There was a minor emphasis on the psychological aspects of roleplaying, particularly regarding issues of empowerment, loneliness, and escapism. The enjoyment related questions included the importance of creativity, and intentional drift ala "house rules." Otherwise the brunt of the survey seemed to me to focus on the purchasing habits of gaming consumers.

En To Pan!
Two Crows

[Paul Czege]

Rather than data that might empower me to tweak the purchasing habits of gamers, I'd personally be interested in data that would help me recruit creative folks to gaming, via game design or social means, or provoke greater enthusiasm from creatively marginalized, nearly-lapsed gamers.

Paul

[TwoCrows]

Paul,

Well, you seem to have drawn me in from the blue. How creative I am likely remains to be weighed.

Getting useful data from "creatively marginalized, nearly-lapsed gamers" in order to "recruit creative folks to gaming" might be a little tricky. So long as they're only nearly lapsed there are ways of reaching them...and in true Indie style with little or nothing aside from time invested, and collaborative resource management.

Considering we could get a reasonable sample size of the sorts of people you're interested in "enthusing," what is it you'd like to learn from them?

What I'm interested in learning is how to empower gamers to get what they want out of gaming, rather than essentially being told what to want. I'm also interested in guaging how well the sorts of things I'd prefer to write might be accepted.

Personally, I like to operate at the higher end of the Enlightened Self-Interest spectrum, getting what I want out of life by helping others do the same. What I want is to understand better what the sorts of people you describe above want out of independently published products, and accessories.

En To Pan!
Two Crows

[Ian Mclean]

If I could get a hundred people in a room, made up of gamers (Video, Table Top RPG, LARP, and otherwise), Game Managers (Game masters, Storytellers, Narrators, etc), game spectators (siblings, romantic interests, parents, friends, etc), game developers (designers, producers, publishers, etc), and game researchers (scholars, marketers, writters, etc) what I would want to ask them is fourfold.

What are the ten most important aspects of a game, in your opinion?

From the first question, I would like to compile a comprehensive list of the ten most mentioned and then request that they:

Rank these ten attributes of a good game from most important, to least important.
What are your interests, mark all that apply:
Player
Manager
Spectator
Developer
Research

Then I would ask them to name three games that they feel are the best.

At conclusion I would ask them to list the interests they hold that lie outside of games. Weather they are employed, what conventions/events do they attend or would like to attend, and what organizations are they involved in outside of their gaming activities. (such as the Society for Creative Anachronism)

Now that I actually started thinking about it, there is more information that I would want to know, but I need time to gather my thoughts and express them succintly.

[TwoCrows]

Ian,

Good questions one, and all...they add to the list of questions I'd like to ask as well.

Rank these ten attributes of a good game from most important, to least important.
What are your interests, mark all that apply:
Player
Manager
Spectator
Developer
Research

Now, in this portion are you asking the respondent what background interests they have with gaming in general, or what background category they belong to?

Perhaps it would help you to know that there are several basic sorts of survey questions, and things can go from there:

1) Screening Questions – These include the typical demographics sorts of questions, but can include questions designed to later target a specific group, or range of groups.

Example "What games, and gaming products are you aware of? Choose as many as apply. Dungeons & Dragons; Donjon; Elfs; Other Please Specify...blah, blah, blah"

Later in the same survey the respondent can be sorted out by the responses they made on the screening questions. One could then ask a series of questions specifically of people who said they were familiar with "Donjon," for instance.

2) Closed-Ended Questions –
The respondent only gets to choose from the responses offered on a list.

Example 1 "When thinking of the 'My Life with Master' roleplaying game, how strongly do you agree or disagree with the statement 'has balanced game mechanics?' Choose only the response that best applies. Agree Strongly; Agree Somewhat; Disagree Strongly...blah, blah, blah..."

Example 2 "Which of the following gaming products have you purchased in the last six months? Choose as many as apply. Dungeon Magazine; Sorcerer; Elfs...etc., etc."

3) Open-Ended Questions –
The respondent gets to write in a response, which is later coded to generate reports, or ask more target questions in the same survey.

Example 1 "Which of the following gaming products have you purchased in the last six months? Choose as many as apply. Dungeon Magazine; Sorcerer; Elfs; Other Specify...etc., etc."

Example 2 "What do you do like, or dislike about 'Dogs in the Vineyard? Write your response in the box provided, and be as specific as possible?"

En To Pan!
Two Crows

[Callan S.]

Hi, Two Crows (I guess you can't use your normal name),

What if gamers can't really, actually tell you what they want? They can only demonstrate it through play? For example - do you know how your liver works? Or your eyes? All the chemicals and stuff and what each organ needs? I can't - but I can demonstrate them in action, to various extents.

Lets say gamers are using an organ in their brain/a particular part of their brain. That doesn't mean they know how it works, just like I don't really know how my liver works. So they can't really answer questions for it.

Perhaps a survey that asks for actual play accounts, snippets of play in relation to X, Y or Z, might yield more. Then look for the patterns in those actual play accounts.

[Ian Mclean]

I meant interest in the capacity of categorizing, or grouping individuals by their invested interest in the realm of gaming. So it would be player [of a game], manager (Game Master, Narrator, Storyteller) [of a game], etc.

The purpose of the two questions, that of ranking and that of background game is to support or disprove a hypothesis that I have. I think that the outcome of the ranking would be that players will rank things highly and that those who run games (manage) will rank the same things lowly.

In reply to Callan. The assumption is that gamers know what they like in a game. They maybe less then technical about it, and they may give misleading information intentionally or unintentional, but they none the less reveal portions of the territory. It is up to those analysizing the statistics to discearn signal from noise.

What you purpose, Callan, is as I understand it playtesting. Which is similar though distinct from marketing. Playtesting accounts can supplement a marketing survey, but will inevitably have more information than is necessary. Just some thoughts, and as always I might be wrong but this is how I understand it to generally work.

[TwoCrows]

Hi Callan,

I intend nothing nefarious by my choice to use a screen handle until I know people IRL, and the name "Two Crows" is one I'm known by to a great many people. It also seems that I'm not the only person doing it here on The Forge. If I meet you at GenCon, ask me, and I'll probably tell you more about me than you'd really like to know.

The internal organs analogy probably wasn't the best choice, as I went to college for pre-med, and nursing...although I think I know what you're aiming for by using it.

Maybe it would help if I explained exactly what I'm pitching here, to whom, how much it might cost to do it, and what I hope to get out of the deal.

The Pitch –
Independent, and Small Press Game Designer, Developer, Distributor, or Retailer:

Would you like a chance to be involved in the formulation of a professional quality marketing survey designed specifically for your unique niche industry, and created according to the very questions you'd like to ask the RPG community?

Would you like to have access to the thoughts of potentially thousands of gamers, and ask them burning questions about their preferences, values, playing style, and expectations left unmet by the traditional gaming industry?

Would you like to know how your own currently published game, or game design concepts stack up against the competition, or your own original design goals?

Would you like to know how to better reach your intended audience, or inspire the hordes of creatively marginalized nearly-lapsed gamers that have all but given up on gaming?

Would you like to have access to one of the same tools as the really big RPG companies?

Typical marketing services cost in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, and in some cases well into the millions.

If you would like access to statistically accurate, professionally presented data relating to:
What gamers really want from independent gaming products
Specific game mechanics, and how they relate to any aspect of gaming
The experiences of game dysfunction in a variety of settings
Scientifically valid numbers for your own gaming theory
What the discerning gamer really thinks about any aspect of gaming
Or questions designed just for you

Then this is your ticket!

Cost to You the Game Designer = Perhaps Nil or LESS! Otherwise on barter for web space, link hosting, and word of mouth legwork.

What I hope to get out of it –
Information on the Indie Gaming Phenomenon, and the same sorts of data anyone else involved in it might want.

Payoff –
If it goes well you get the answers to your burning questions, tools for better reaching, and expanding your customer base, and a saleable product for which all contributors will not only get free access, but perhaps also accrue royalties.

Above all you get the joy of knowing that Indie RPG not only CAN use the same professional tools as the industry leaders to their own advantage, for way less than they're paying, but better yet that Allen Varney might someday have to take back the "positively monastic" comment in regards to what you earn from selling your games.

En To Pan!
Two Crows

[TwoCrows]

Ian,

You seem to have a grasp of exactly what I'm aiming at here. Your understanding of how marketing research generally works is right on, particularly the part about discerning signal to noise ratios.

What's more you have a good idea of the sorts of information you'd like to get from the gaming community, and how having it might impact your own work.

On the Playtesting end of things an Afteruse Survey can finger the trouble points, and unmet expectations of gamers/customers, but that's another pitch.

What I'm proposing is that the Indie RPG Industry can have access to the same kinds of tools the big boys have, for less, and designed for the sorts of uses consistent with the values of Indie Gaming.

En To Pan!
Two Crows

[pells]

Very interesting ... Two things :

I would be very interested in the perception of games. Maybe I'm wrong on this, but I get a feeling that if someone says he likes X in a game, he might not even be playing a game that does X, but still might have the perception that the game does. Or maybe that's something else, in fact, that he likes. Maybe my game does X, but is mostly perceived as doing Y (let's say because it has the indie tag on it).
Anyway, sure, it would be a great, useful ressource.

Cost to You the Game Designer = Perhaps Nil or LESS! Otherwise on barter for web space, link hosting, and word of mouth legwork.

If I understand you well, we (as a community I guess) could build this specific survey maybe like http://www.gamesurvey.org/, where people would come and take it. This would mean :
- finding a webhosting, a domain name (maybe)
- building the webpage and the database
- building the survey in itself (with the help of people who know exactly what they are doing)
- attract people to the site to take survey after taking it ourself (people here at the forge, for instance)
- analyse the data (we'll need people for that as it seems a whole job in itself)

That's a lot of work.
For those of us (let's say so called designer) who have a website, it would be in our interest to add a link toward this survey.
And I like the "mecanic" of screening. I would see a designer as a "client" of this survey who might want to ask some specific questions to some specific population (I'm thinking of LARP project for instance, or wargame).

Do I get you right ?

[TwoCrows]

Hi Pellsie,

Two Things? You kill me...nothing new here. I've been called Two Crocks, Two Cows, Two Twats, Two Cocks, Tookers...the list goes on...C+ for effort! It's the thought that counts.

You're getting me right, approximately, with some caveats.

Yes, what I'm proposing is one hel of a lot of work in human hours, but between the people I have on my end there's over 40 years experience in the really real top shelf marketing research industry...the kind people pay phat lewt for just to talk to us. With the professional consulting hirelings I can call in that experience tops 100 years.

The lovely thing about professional marketing services is that surveys are designed specifically for the clients that contract for them. This means that any sorts of questions can be asked, and you have professionals on hand to help you figure out what you need to ask, whom you need to survey, and then they do you up better than you could on your own. Want to know the most prevalent color of underwear gamers wear? No man, I'm not kidding!

What I'm talking about is just the tip of the iceburg. Imagine a cheap way to professionally handle customer response cards placed in your newly published Indie RPG product, or someone who will distribute your Ashcan to hundreds of people, and then professionally survey them very concisely on what it is they thought of the product.

No, I'm not talking about some free survey gimmick, or online polling scheme. I'm talking about professionals (folks that make five figures+ in their day marketing jobs), using industry standard high-end (way not cheap) software, professionally creating, analyzing, and reporting the findings in formats that speak to the client's needs. I'm talking about professional business services that the Indie Community could most likely never afford under normal circumstances.

In fact what I'm proposing is the exact same types of services that big companies all too often pay thousands (or millions, I'm not kidding) of dollars for, but done in the focused interests of the Indie/Small Press/Freelance Designer niche industry.

How do we do all this? Sounds too good to be true? Sure it does, but I'm convinced it can be done, AND earn money (for some folks) in the process. I'm also convinced that this CAN change the lot of Indie RPG Designers by not only putting a professional marketing tool in their hot little hands, but putting them in direct contact with lots of gamers that may never even have heard of them. Eventual result – Indie/Small Press folks earn more money selling products to gamers that really want them.

We the Community collaborate on the sorts of questions we'd like to ask lots, and lots of gamers, doesn't matter what flavor of gamers either, the survey will handle sorting them out into useful groupings based on the design of the questionnaire, and data analysis.

My Team builds the Questionnaire, the eSurvey, the Survey Frontend GUI, the Databases, Coding Frames and Coding Lists, the Analysis Specs, and conducts the survey just the same damned way any of the really big top shelf marketing research firms do.

We fund the whole thing through sponsorships, and then sell the deliverable data set to any interested parties that want them. Who are the potential Sponsors willing to shuck out the cash to make this happen, I hear you asking? Retailers, Hobby Shops, Manufacturers, Publishers, big dollar Freelancers, and anyone who has a vested interest in learning what Gamers really want. Maybe I'm off base, but I see the results of this being a hot commodity among some parties, who will in fact pay for it just like any other product if they're not involved in it as collaborators from the beginning.

Collaborators get to be involved in the creation of the Questionnaire, and their reward for grass roots helping out in the work is the deliverable data for FREE, with a professionally written, in-layman's-terms analysis of the data. And man, let me tell you people need this latter, because the tables generated in really real top shelf marketing surveys are more often than not analyzed by PhDs on the client end. Oh, I have access to a couple of those sorts of guys too!

Now, on the list you posted –

If I understand you well, we (as a community I guess) could build this specific survey maybe like http://www.gamesurvey.org/, where people would come and take it. This would mean :
- finding a webhosting, a domain name (maybe)
- building the webpage and the database
- building the survey in itself (with the help of people who know exactly what they are doing)
- attract people to the site to take survey after taking it ourself (people here at the forge, for instance)
- analyse the data (we'll need people for that as it seems a whole job in itself)

Yes, webhosting is important, but ONLY for a link to the Survey Site. Unless something happens to change things I can host the survey, and db, which are fucking huge depending upon how many respondents we get. I'm aiming for a number in the thousands. The tentative Barter for hosting the link, putting up a news blurb, causing a stir, etc. is a FREE copy of the deliverable.

Domain name, well to be honest because of all this chatter, and a deep longing for both of us to eventually quit our day jobs, I'm now in negations with my wife for us to start a marketing research consulting business just for the RPG industry, and specifically for the little guys, the alternative guys, the folks I like to think of as US. So, unless that falls through I'll cover that too. The tentative company name, and tagline are:

DIY RPG "Because nobody knows better what's fun than gamers." Copyright Bradley Allen Bennett 2007 (you got me, don't spread it around)

All the professional marketing stuff, is my end. All the leg work, word of mouth, hosting the link, getting the word out at cons, etc. is OUR work.

Oh, and let me make myself plain on my business philosophy – People who hate money, mentally denigrate those who make lots of it, or look down their noses at the business side of life are not only misplacing their angst, but insuring their own poverty. There's nothing wrong with earning a fair compensation for a good product that people really want. It's the folks that screw, manipulate, and lie to their customers that everyone should hate, and even then generally speaking business is not the culprit...the crooks are!

I've got a few more details to sew up, and then I'll be ready to start asking people who wants in on the ground floor, and hunting up potential sponsors. Help in that latter arena would also be appreciated, but please don't anyone start stirring up sponsors until after I know exactly what we can offer them in terms of the marketing product, and perks based on my end of the work.

If people want to start thinking about the sorts of questions they'd like to ask the gaming community, or mentally lining up folks that are willing to pitch in on the barter wagon that's fine.

En To Pan!
Two Crows

[Callan S.]

In reply to Callan. The assumption is that gamers know what they like in a game.

I understand that's the assumption the marketing structure is working from. I'm asking if there's any other structures available, as I think that assumption isn't adequate for my purposes.

What you purpose, Callan, is as I understand it playtesting. Which is similar though distinct from marketing. Playtesting accounts can supplement a marketing survey, but will inevitably have more information than is necessary. Just some thoughts, and as always I might be wrong but this is how I understand it to generally work.

I think your trying to help me out, but haven't asked about the overall process first.