Contest and Combat Brainstorm

[Justin Nichol - BFG]

So I'm currently interested in designing an interesting combat system around the open source game engine I'm developing, CORE, and I've seena couple interesting ideas here on the fourms, so I thought I'd start a thread that was game independent where we could dialogue about contested rolls and combat, different approaches/ideas, and ways to improve the way we design conflict in our systems, because honestly, for all the emphasis on combat in most mainstream games, there aren't a lot that really shine in that department. So maybe we can discuss, borrow from eachother or get inspired by new ideas.

In the interest of starting the discussion, I'll share an idea I've been kicking around currently called Leverage. It's an idea for combat and conceivably for any extened contested roll where opponents are rolling against one another and not simply to both achieve a goal. Essentially, leverage is a variable pool that allows characters to do various things in combat, and is attained through various means. With leverage you can lower the difficulty of rolls against an opponent but no lower than your own level. Essentially it allows a character to lower a roll to a fair contest, whatever that amounts to in your campaign. Also it can be used to negate the use of your opponents leverage, and finally can optionally be traded in for extra action points or fuel flurry actions. The reason I got this idea and I'm currently designing it is because I want a way to simulate advantage and strategy in combat, and want to be able to mix up the moves used in combat. This is done because leverage can be used to even a contested roll, meaning a less skilled character who utilizes strategy can even a contest. Also a more skilled character cannot lower a contest below their own level of skill, but can  do special maneuvers or called shots. This way a punch to the head is no longer a gamble, simply outmaneuver your opponent, buy down the penalties of the called shot and take the hit. Conceivably leverage could be levied to do extremely cinematic and difficult actions that would not be attempted in your normal slash, wait, slash, wait combat system. Leverage can be gained in a number of ways: High Ground, Feints, Environmental Modifiers, Trips and Throws, taking cover, etc. Basically making more useful those maneuvers which so often get ignored in typical RPG combat. You can also gain leverage or give your opponent leverage if an attack is repeated, because the attack is more predictable. All of this is meant to engender combat where strategy matters and people cannot constantly utilize the same attack without giving an advantage to their opponent.


I'd really like to hear what ideas we can come up with, I am trying to create a syetm that engenders varied and cinematic attacks and gives a consistent way to levy modifiers for skilled play. I want to create a system that is punchy and fast paced but doesn't get boring with the same old attacks over and over and has a fun simulationist bent to it without getting bogged down. Quite a task.

Of course, we don't have to just talk about combat, I'm interested in many different conflicted contests, like car chases, chess games etc. and how we can make the fundamental basis of conflict and strategy more consistent in our games.

[Anders Larsen]

Hi

I may risk sounding cynical here, but I have seen these kind of ideas many times, and I have never seen anything come out of them. I think the reason is that you will run into a lot of complexity. Every time you add one more thing that a character can do in a combat situation you have to add a new rule or modifier, and in the end you will end up with a the opposite of what you want; you will have a tightly structured mechanic with a lot of limitations.

The games I have tried which have given a more cinematic experience, have normally been more "loose". That is, they have solved the conflict on a higher level - decide which direction the story should go, not the single action - and then have the players freely describe what their characters are doing, for that direction in the story to take effect.

An other concern is: Why are you focusing so much on the combat mechanic? (Ok, I can see that you add that the mechanic can be used in other situations, but that seems more like an afterthought.) Is the combat so important for the stories you want to tell with this game?

The normal rational I have heard for this is that the combat mechanic is the most complex, so if the system can handle combat correct, it can handle everything. But that is really a false premise; the combat mechanic is only complex if you make it complex, a mechanic for political debates can be just as complex if you want it to.

An other thing you should consider is that the players will use the tools that the system gives them. If you have a very elaborate combat mechanic, that is what the players will use to solve problems. If you, on the other hand, have a elaborate mechanic for political debates, then that will be what the players use to solve problems. So be very careful of what conflict solving mechanics you make, because they will define how the players will handle the conflicts their characters face.

I'm sorry that this rant is mostly negative, I just thought that I would give you some warnings.

- Anders

[Sovem]

There's a reason Hollywood sells more tickets at "Pirates of the Carribean" and "Spider-man" than "Bobby" or "Georgia Rules." Politics and social interaction can be interesting, but flashy fights and big explosions are just more fun! To each his own, of course, but in the roleplaying demographic, we tend to like-a the fight scenes.

Justin--I love the idea of leverage. I hate how RPGs always make combat soley about your physical stats. (One might argue your martial skills represent your more mental understanding of combat, but that's debatable and, besides, your physical main stats are going to be most important, anyway). It's as if characters in a fight are no more than those robo-boxers that hit each other until a head pops off. I'd love to see combat that involves more strategy and out witting/ out guessing your opponent. I'd love it if leverage could be gained through using some type of intelligence/perception skill that represents your character "figuring out" his opponent; seeing the pattern in his moves or recognizing his fighting style, if you will.

[Justin Nichol - BFG]

I don't know what you're game troupe is like, but Combat is essentially a staple in most games. Many many games involve combat, and pretending that that doesn't occur for the sake of higher ideals doesn't help our designs. I understand what you're saying, but I personlly am trying to make a universal system, and for the majority of gamers, they have a lot more fights than political debates, so yes combat is more important to me than argument. BUT I would like if possible, like I said to make it so the special rules for combat could be extrapolated to allow any contest to be extended, or if it makes more sense, to create a system for extended, dramatic contests for all contested rolls, and then extrapolate those to combat. Not just to make everything complex but so people if they wanted to have more debate than fighting could extend those contests and use dramatic roleplaying for their debates. Most RPG's treat debate or a footrace as a simple forensics/debate or athletics role, but if we could discuss various methods of designing for making contests more varied and cinematic but still fast paced then people would have more and better choices. I know I'm referring to combat a lot because that has a lot to do with roleplaying for many gamers and thats who I'm trying to serve, but I'm trying to make it so if people don't want combat, they're not underserved by not having rules for other systems, and I'm trying to make it so I dont have to write subsystem for playing sports game or racing in cars, etc. etc.. The reason I started this thread was to try to discuss ideas and discuss how we could simplify some ideas so we could have systems that weren't as complex. Besides, although we all strive for simplicity as a design goal, I've never known gamers to shy away from complexity, some say they don't like complex rules, but I've never met any who have trouble using them, and many enjoy them.

Sovem, thanks for the vote of confidence, like I said I want to have it so you can use charismatic skills like deception to make feints, so charisma is important in combat. It could also be that you could make a tactical maneuever where you dont actually try and strike but only use intelligence to better position yourself. So charm and intelligence would be valuable in combat.