[DitV] - Archons in the Night

[The Bane]

All,

Let me say that I am a DitV noob. I bought the PDF when I saw it on a forum being run. I have since joined that game and have read the rules through twice. I must admit that on the first read I was amazed, on the second read I was blown away! I want to GM a game myself, but recruiting is tenuous at best. Not sure why, but I am guessing it is the setting. I don't mind westerns but they aren't my favorite. Don't get me wrong, I'm not here recruiting. While searching the alternate settings I found Vineyard of Blood and the follow on thread, Point Grace. To my disappointment they are from years ago.

I guess I am wondering if they ever panned out, or how they worked? I want to take DitV to other genres, but before I get jumped, I intend to GM it as-is for a while. I just want to do the research now for an alternate setting. So to further that, I am wondering if any of the experienced DitV gamers here have any thought on this:

Creating characters as Possessed, Cults, or as Sorcerers to represent Vampires. Sorcerers would be your Princes, Dogs would be Archons, Cults would be well maybe bloodlines, and Vampires could become Possessed (Rage) at will. The demonic traditions in DitV seem to lend themselves well to Vampire powers.

Thoughts?

The Bane

[Filip Luszczyk]

Creating characters as Possessed, Cults, or as Sorcerers to represent Vampires. Sorcerers would be your Princes, Dogs would be Archons, Cults would be well maybe bloodlines, and Vampires could become Possessed (Rage) at will. The demonic traditions in DitV seem to lend themselves well to Vampire powers.

Hmm, I think it might be problematic, as this would require changing the general structure of play - that's a lot of houseruling, potentially, and the end results are difficult to predict. However, consider this:

Faith = Camarilla
Dogs = Camarilla enforcers (however they were called)
Coats = Clan status (i.e. status treated as Belonging)
Steward = Prince
Demons = Beast
Relationship with Demon = diminishing Humanity
Demonic Influence = Sabat Influence
Sorcerers = Sabat leaders (whatever the term was)
Possession = Rage

This would fit well into the existing overall structure of play, I think.

[The Bane]

Hmm, I think it might be problematic, as this would require changing the general structure of play - that's a lot of houseruling, potentially, and the end results are difficult to predict. However, consider this:

Faith = Camarilla
Dogs = Camarilla enforcers (however they were called)
Coats = Clan status (i.e. status treated as Belonging)
Steward = Prince
Demons = Beast
Relationship with Demon = diminishing Humanity
Demonic Influence = Sabat Influence
Sorcerers = Sabat leaders (whatever the term was)
Possession = Rage

This would fit well into the existing overall structure of play, I think.

Hmmm. Interesting. Maybe I am over thinking it. Hopefully it will become clearer as I GM some games. But that does give me something to watch out for and consider while I'm doing conventional games. Would you mind clarifying 'Demons=Beast' and I'm not familiar with the 'Sabat'. Are these WoD references?

Thanks for the response,

The Bane

[Filip Luszczyk]

Yes, these are WoD references - but I haven't played Vampire for ages, so I wouldn't be surprised if I messed up some terms. You mentioned Princes, Rage and bloodlines, so I thought you were refering to WoD as well.

If I were to run Vampire using Dogs, anyway, I'd probably aim for the most direct setting port possible. So,"something wrong" creeping into the (vampiric) community would be the diminishing Humanity (the beastial side of Vampires would effectively take the niche of Demons in the system), and the intrusion of vampires who embrace their Beast would be a good manifestation of "something wrong" (so, Sabat agents would take the system niche of Sorcerers, and Demonic Influence would effectively measure the level of their intrusion/threat to the community).

[The Bane]

Wow, good stuff!

I didn't realize they where WoD references actually. They were references that I picked out of the other threads on the subject. Thanks for clarifying.

I was considering how to do the towns for DitV in this setting and was thinking of dividing a large city into districts. Each district would be ruled by some form of Primarch (aka Steward) and as they moved threw they would have different Sins of the resident Vampires to address, including the possibility of Werewolves (aka Mountain Folk).

Think I will go with a compilation of some of the Sin progressions and Fall Out escalation in the other threads. They seem workable.

Thanks again for the input! Feel free to express any other thoughts you have on the matter. I would love to hear them.


The Bane

[Filip Luszczyk]

The districts idea sounds good. Werewolfs as Mountain Folk equivalent are also pretty neat - actually, it makes me think of Black Blood Brothers anime, where some the vampires of some bloodlines were werewolfs at the same time.

As for the escalations, I'd suggest re-defining the d8 and d10 arenas - if I were to run Vampire using DitV I'd proably use Body + Will for combat in general, including guns, and Acuity + Will for disciplines and other supernatural powers. Possibly, I'd also give extra 1d4 to supernatural Belongings rather than guns, like in Afraid, but that depends on whether I'd want to focus on the supernatural aspect or on the vampiric mob aspect of the Vampire.

[The Bane]

Never heard of Black Blood Brothers = (

What is driving my train right now is 'Underworld' the movie as a setting with a DitV mechanic and feel.
TonyLB mentioned the following on the first link of my first post about Escalation...

Normal
Uncanny
Supernatural
Horrifying

or maybe something like...
Social/Posturing
Physical
Weapons (all)
Horrifying (meat grinder kind of fall out produced by vampires/werewolves or silver, stakes, decapitation, etc produced by non-vamp/weres)

Thanks again for the input, it is helping me A LOT!

The Bane

[David Artman]

Social/Posturing
Physical
Weapons (all)
Horrifying (...)

I'll note here that the WoD has a term for your "horrifying" stage of escallation: Aggravated. It covers not only ripping off arms and spiking hearts, but also sunlight and silver and wolfsbane.

Further, from my experience, "normal" weapons mean bupkiss to Vamp and Lycans. Think of Blade, for instance: shooting a guy in the face was a way to punctuate a sentence, not a significant assault. But start to get REALLY physical (i.e. Potence and Celerity) and well... you got problems.

Finally, I like the KISS principle, even in terminology. So your first stage gets summarized, leaving this escallation chart:
Talking = Heart + Acuity
Weapons = Acuity + Body
Physical = Body + Will
Aggravated = Will + Heart

HTH;
David

[The Bane]

Social/Posturing
Physical
Weapons (all)
Horrifying (...)

I'll note here that the WoD has a term for your "horrifying" stage of escallation: Aggravated. It covers not only ripping off arms and spiking hearts, but also sunlight and silver and wolfsbane.

Further, from my experience, "normal" weapons mean bupkiss to Vamp and Lycans. Think of Blade, for instance: shooting a guy in the face was a way to punctuate a sentence, not a significant assault. But start to get REALLY physical (i.e. Potence and Celerity) and well... you got problems.

Finally, I like the KISS principle, even in terminology. So your first stage gets summarized, leaving this escallation chart:
Talking = Heart + Acuity
Weapons = Acuity + Body
Physical = Body + Will
Aggravated = Will + Heart

HTH;
David

Interesting! But may I ask why you inverted Weapons and Physical? I mean, I understand that a Physical attack from a vampire or werewolf would be somewhat more gory than a bullet hole, but what about the mundane? Would you use the traditional escalation for a mortal?

I guess I need to speculate on this more. Appreciate the input!

The Bane

[David Artman]

...
Further, from my experience, "normal" weapons mean bupkiss to Vamp and Lycans.
...

Interesting! But may I ask why you inverted Weapons and Physical? I mean, I understand that a Physical attack from a vampire or werewolf would be somewhat more gory than a bullet hole, but what about the mundane? Would you use the traditional escalation for a mortal?

Mainly because I figured the bulk of conflicts would involve at least one supernatural participant. If you got normal on normal then, sure, use the original chart: it was written for human versus human. But why make a "vampires in the vineyard" game, if the players are going to be playing humans and conflicting with other humans? Play DitV!

But supernatural versus human would use my new chart because (a) weapons mean nothing to supernaturals and (b) aggravated is how humans have any chance of defeating supernaturals and (c) a supernatural's Physical damage is FAR worse, to humans, than any old gunshot or knife wound. Or just to avoid confusion, if nothing else.

Remember that these are just means to roll more dice at the risk of worse fallout and undesirable outcomes. So you have to ask yourself what's riskiest for the participants (and if they're supernaturals, I think my chart nails it).
David

[lumpley]

Dogs already does this! Read up on possessed people.

-Vincent

[The Bane]

Dumb question, but are you implying that I may have been on to something in my first post...

"Creating characters as Possessed, Cults, or as Sorcerers to represent Vampires. Sorcerers would be your Princes, Dogs would be Archons, Cults would be well maybe bloodlines, and Vampires could become Possessed (Rage) at will. The demonic traditions in DitV seem to lend themselves well to Vampire powers."

If not I am TOTALLY lost. Should I revisit this idea?


The Bane

[lumpley]

Yes! Revisit that idea.

I don't know what an Archon is.

Have you read my development documents for Afraid? You might find them interesting.

[David Artman]

Vincent, an Archon is an enforcer for the Camarilla--basically the extension of the will of a Justicar.

RPG definitions are fun, eh?

VERY simplified summary: OK, you know how the White Wolf Vampire world has a fair few number of Clans, each of which emphasizes or typifies one of the major vampire legends of the world. Around the time of The Inquisition, the vampire clans schismed into the Sabbat and Camarilla. The Sabbat organized itself around church-related titles, but the Cam chose more feudal ranks: a Prince rules a city's Cam vamps, a Justicar rules an entire Clan's vamps. An Archon is the agent of his or her Justicar.

Hence the reason I (and others here) have considered them more like Dogs than the Possessed. They enforce the Traditions and the ideals of their Clan. In the World of Darkness, they are the exemplars, the ideal of their group. Just doesn't feel like the (adversarial, amoral) Possessed or Sorcerers, to me....

But I didn't write the system.
David

[The Bane]

I must admit I am limited on my WoD history, but purely speculative I wanted something along the lines of the supernatural powers that the possessed had to represent vampires. I have been eye-balling the d12 thread and realize that something out there in the night would have to make a vampire think twice. Maybe it is the d12 or d20, a vampire or werewolf that has given into the rage or blood lust. I don't know and don't pretend to know at this point of my limited experience with DitV. I realize that making the big bad a d20 toting monstrosity might mean much more die rolling and give and take in a conflict, but I'm starting to believe that it may be required to portray the vampires as I envision them. Extended Sees and Raises might not be all that bad considering the genre.

I am going to check the link provided by lumpley to see what it entails.

I hope there will be more discussion about this. If someone could explain how I can elevate vampires above normal people (give them the powers that they should have for the genre) and play them just as dogs are created I would love to hear it.


The Bane