Darkest Dungeons

[vertigo25]

I usually get flashes of ideas, and burn through them pretty quickly. This one, however, looks like it may actually see the light of day. I've actually been putting at least a little work in to it every day since I thought of it.

Here's my description (I envision at least part of this being on the back of the book):

Enter the Darkest Dungeon; where every stereotype, urban legend, and misconception about role playing games and their players is completely true. Role-playing games are dangerous; leading to occultism, poor grades, insanity, and even suicide. The people who play these sinister "games" are highly intelligent (they have to be to understand the overly-complex rules) but troubled social misfits who spend all of their time and money on the game. The people who run them are dangerous malcontents attempting to indoctrinate our children into all sorts of deviant behavior.

In darkest Darkest Dungeons, each player takes on the role of a Gamer in a group of young people playing the wildly popular... and horrifically dangerous game, "Darkest Dungeons" and the Characters those Gamers play. The Gamers compete to get their Characters to "The 9th Level" without turning to occultism, killing themselves, failing out of school, or loosing their grip on reality. They must constantly appease their game master (called the Evil DM, or EDM) to gain favor. Their friends and family (and even the other Gamers) constantly attempt to pull them away from the game... or pull them deeper in. They become embroiled in a battle between Corruption and Sanctity. Traveling too far towards either one, however, will ultimately prevent them from reaching the fabled 9th Level of the Dungeon.

The game basically breaks down like this:

Up to 6 people may play.

Players roll Stats which represent their personalities and psychological make up (none of them are physical): Strength of Will (STR), Nimbleness (NIM), Intelligence (INT), Endurance (END), Wisdom (WIS), Charisma (CHR),

They choose "Gamers" which are typical stereotypes associated with the hobby: The Spaz, The Alpha Geek, The Goth Geek, The Girl (only one may be in play at any time), The Popular Kid (maximum of 2 in a game), and the Nerd. More than one person can choose any of the Gamers (except the girl). Each one has special advantages and disadvantages; bonuses to their Stats.

They each choose a "Character:" Warrior, Wizard, Thief, Cleric, Elf, Dwarf. Only one of each can be played in a game. Each Gamer has their own personal favorite Character as well as one which they hate to play. The Favorite Character gives the players bonuses during the "In Game" phase, but increases their "Attachment" score. The hated character works the opposite way. The selection process starts out as the first test the Gamers must face. They must roll a stat test to try to get to pick first. Here's a little bit from the rules:

However, there is an element of the game which may make it enviable to play the Hated Character and undesirable to play the Favorite Character. As play progresses, the Gamers gain Attachment to their Character. If a Character dies while in the Darkest Dungeon, a test is made to see how well the Gamer handles it. Too much attachment to a character in this situation could cause the Gamer to commit suicide, or even worse: quit the game.

The game is played in two phases per round. The first phase is the OOG Phase; the second, the IG Phase.

In the OOG the players take on the roles of their Gamer. They can choose a particular action to work towards; things like: Earn favor of the DM, Humiliate another character, Rally the group, etc. In the IG Phase, they are actually playing a game of Darkest Dungeons. Again, they have a similar task per round.

I'll post some more specifics later, but I was wondering if I could get some feedback mainly on concept right now, as well as some ideas on what stereotypes you've encountered concerning the hobby. This doesn't have to be about the players, but anything about the hobby. For example, one of the running gags in the rules is to refer to various charts (In all actuality the charts aren't really that necessary as the mechanics are going to be quite simple). There will be one "Adventure Module" which will have a chance of the Characters falling a 100 ft. off a cliff; they'll only take one hit point of damage, but if they fall 101 ft., the damage increases drastically. So... stereotypes in game and out of game. In-jokes are good too.

Also, there will be several references to Mazes and Monsters and Jack Chick's Dark Dungeons (in fact the cover is a parody of the Chick Tract and has the word's "It's Your Fault Black Leaf Died"). There will also be vague references to the sources of some of the urban legends surrounding the hobby. Right now these are coming from the Pulling and the Egbert cases. I'd like to ask if anyone has recommendations for others.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Are you thinking in terms of effective parody, or in terms of in-game content that actually moves and develops? Either seems possible, but they're definitely not the same thing and I think they'd require pretty different approaches.

Best, Ron

[vertigo25]

Good question, and a bit difficult to answer (which, actually makes it a great question).

In a way, I think I'd like encouragement towards what people would find most entertaining. Would it be more fun (or humorous) if there's a few references to steam tunnels, or would it be better to actually incorporate that in some way to actual play? In this type of game, which is more important; effective parody, or content that moves and develops?

Maybe I'm not totally following the question, however.

Also, as I see it, this isn't the most in-depth RPG. Opportunities to actually role-play are, at present, somewhat limited. They are implied and encouraged, but should I take it further? The phases are intended for you to make your "move." Say, you want to kiss a little butt towards the EDM. In mechanical terms this is just a roll of the dice adjusted for things like which Gamer and Character you're playing, and oppositions from the other players.

How could I introduce more role-playing and story development... and should I?

[vertigo25]

Thinking the question over a bit, my answer is: effective parody which is playable and that stays funny when you play it.

I'm trying to make reading the rule book an entertaining process, but I want for as much of the humor to roll over in to play as possible. In a group, there's probably only going to be one person who has read the rule book. If he insists that it's the funniest game ever written and the players end up feeling like he's on crack, the game is a failure for me.

So, to wit:

I want mechanics that are themselves funny. When those mechanics represent urban myths, stereotypes, and misconceptions about the hobby and the players, *even better*.

Now, of course, I have a more specific question: how far is too far? I've played with the idea of having the players run the risk of shooting up their school, or other acts of homicide. Is that stepping over a line for most people?

[Zeigfreid]

Hi

Did you ever watch the anime .hack?

z.

[vertigo25]

Did you ever watch the anime .hack?

No, but I just went and read some reviews and synopses. Sounds interesting.

What were you thinking?

[Rafu]

I'd buy this game.

[Callan S.]

I want mechanics that are themselves funny. When those mechanics represent urban myths, stereotypes, and misconceptions about the hobby and the players, *even better*.

What is funny then? One way I'd put it is where a character has a goal and is passionate about getting it, but has other goals which A: he pursues without really thinking about and B: conflict with the goal he's more passionate about. Finally you have C: which is where he's presented with the situation and doesn't damn well get it, even though from the readers perspective it's right there!

I'll humour myself (pun intended) and post this comic of mine as a quick example
http://rolluproleup.stripgenerator.com/2007/05/31/the-reality-of-the-situation.html

I'm not trying to blindly guess how you'd put it, so try and tell me what you think some components are. But I'll lay my cards down - I'm paranoid about getting an answer like "That's not it" and nothing else - it seems a cop out and indicative of attention seeking. Could you name a component or two of humour? If you can't, that's understandable and alright.

[vertigo25]

Callan, I don't really understand what you're saying/asking.

[Callan S.]

If you want the mechanics to inject humour into the game, (IMO) you need to determine some underpinnings of humour.

Or did you just want mechanics which are funny to read in themselves, but don't inject humour into actual game play?

BTW, can you PM me where I went wrong with my post, I've reread it a few times and it seems clear (if anyone else wants to PM on that, go for it, I'm confused).

[vertigo25]

I think I get it now. Thanks for being more succinct.

I think the way you present it here is really good, because it makes me actually *think* about what I want the "humor in the mechanics" to be.

To be honest, I think I'm going about it wrong... or at least going about expressing it wrong. In another forum, someone said that they think mechanics of a game can only be funny to a mathematician. I don't think I took that for what it meant then, but I get it now.

I've been saying "I want funny mechanics" but maybe what I'm actually looking for is the mechanics to be presented in a funny way. For me, that's pure absurdist parody of rules in "real" RPGs.

Here's a (not very funny) example. In the game, you "go up a level" every ten experience points. Simple. And that's the mechanic of it.

On the description pages for each Gamer, though, there is a "Experience Progression Table." It will be formatted much like the old tables from D&D.

Like I said, that's not a terribly funny example. The real humor from that will come from the proliferation of Tables throughout the book.

But... would it be funnier to have something within the game where the characters must "look up the rules?" There could be something where they have to spend a certain amount of time not taking another move.

And to take it further...

Would it reinforce the humor, or be beating a dead horse if the person playing the character had to actually reference a table in the book to determine exactly how much time their character had to spend out of play?

And yes, I'm actually asking for an opinion on that.

I heard an interview with Gary Shandling one time where he said that there were times that while writing comedy, the analytical portion of his mind would take over and ruin his work. As soon as you ask "is it funny?" it stops being at all funny to you.

I never like Shandling's comedy, but, Jesus, I can relate to him now.

[natfrobinson]

Ron,

Sounds like a brilliant idea for a "light" game.

I was wondering though; Could you elaborate on the interaction between IG and OOG rules? I mean, if your character were to die IG, would you suffer penalties OOG, etc.?

[vertigo25]

Nat,

I'm Andy, actually

To answer your question, yes! Actually, there's a few things that can happen (not all of these rules are down, yet, though).

The Gamer (i.e. the OOG character) can end up committing suicide which completely ends the game for them.

If they live, however, there's a few things that can happen. They can attempt to convince the EDM to allow them to roll up a new character, which would start at 1st level. It's also hard for them to gain Attachment to this character (Attachment is a two edge sword, BTW... sometimes good, sometimes bad).

They can also "find a new group." This is like rolling up a new character, but ends up with some other penalties, as well (they can no longer perform certain actions (unless another member ends up also joining that group)).

[Narf the Mouse]

What are some actions that the PG can take? What about cheating, bribing, bullying, rules-lawyering, lying and whining?

[vertigo25]

Actually most of those are included.

"Cheating" isn't really possible as an action.

Trying to earn Favor of the EDM is, in a way "bribing." But, you have to do things like go to gaming conventions, buy more game books, and attend LARPs. The major benefits of having the favor of the EDM is that he/she is more likely to pick and Adventure Module that's favorable to your GC. There's also times when he/she will flub rolls for you.

Lying and whining aren't covered yet. I want to make them aspects of the actual role-playing.

Rules Lawyer is what the Nerd Gamer Type becomes at 4th level.