Tales From The Rusty Broadsword Inn (Take 2) - Some sort of massive problem?

[Narf the Mouse]

I had a flash of inspiration and completely redesigned the system. Then, I posted straight to 'Connections', which now seems very premature. With about four hundred and fifty views on my post in 'Connections' and not a single reply, it seems likely that there's some sort of huge problem - Especially since someone who liked the character sheets did an about-face upon seeing the rules.

So, I don't have a specific question yet, partially because he hasn't had time to tell me what the problem is, so I'm just wondering - Is there anything, some game mechanic or the complete lack of a setting or etc. - That is, well, bad. Something that puts up a big, huge 'Avoid Me' sign. I have no clue - I'm in the forest and all I'm seeing is trees.

.Zip here and .Rar here.
Main rules, example character sheets, optional subsystems.

Thanks muchly.

[Callan S.]

I had a look at the main document, with a lazy consumers eye rather than a researching designers eye. I'll preface by saying I've actually tried to read a few indie games here and there and I've often found it damn hard - they often go into defining terms at length and talking about choices without any context to what you'd ultimately try to achieve. It seems a recurring issue in indie design, atleast from my perspective (I don't know how others like Ron read through these things - I just can't absorb it all without the context of a goal in which to frame it).

I can't describe what I think is a falling down point, don't have the words. But I can describe a solution to that fall point I see and you'll be able to see it and decide if you agree or not. Sorry for the awkwardness, but the words aren't there.

Okay, a solution (so as to highlight what I think is a/the problem): Set up a scene appropriate to your game right at the start, design it so it will resolve in just a few rule uses. Also make sure those rule uses will take as little reading and internalising as possible. Then flow chart those rules, and rephrase the rules to fit the scene to make it flow (ie, don't talk about to hit rolls in a generic way, talk about rolling a hit on the orc that is in the scene). And I really mean a flow chart, so all the user has to do is trace his finger along it and decide which fork he takes at yes/no questions. And as I said, make it finish quick.

Sub note: In terms of simulationist or damn close to simulationist play (I don't know what agenda your aiming for), as I understand it they should just go on, and on, and on. In this case instead of having it end quickly, you should ensure the flow chart loops, but a very tight loop. This allows the reader to envision the loop quickly.

I'd also talk about the next step, user created content, and still not throwing them into the deep end and instead having another flow chart like above. But that's enough for now - can you see the problem I'm suggesting is there, by the solution? I'm not pitching the solution as if you have to agree, it's just to show what I think.

[Narf the Mouse]

I think the problem you're suggesting is that it's all options, with nothing to say how those options are used? I could definitly see how play examples could help a lot.

[Callan S.]

My solution is so players can open the book and play right now. Not after a great deal of reading, memorising and internalising rules and their structure. Play right now. Not even examples of play - playing, right now. That play, assuming its fun, is the incentive to read the rest of the book. It's a bit like a demo of a computer game whets your appetite for the full game.

That's how I'd describe the problem, anyway (via describing a solution).

[Narf the Mouse]

Oh, you mean a short intro adventure like a 'Choose your own Adventure' book?

[Callan S.]

In terms of describing the problem by a solution, yeah, I think a mini choose your own adventure is spot on. AND I'd really like to see that

Sorry to have described what I think is the problem in such a round about way - I think I would have been even more round about simply describing the prob I saw.

Now I'm looking forward hopefully for an indie game with a mini choose your own adventure in it Do you think there's much prospect?

[Narf the Mouse]

I think I can manage that. But Ron doesn't like idle chatter, so...

[Narf the Mouse]

...How to I put down choices when the very damage that is done is chosen by the player? I could limit the results to a selection...

[Narf the Mouse]

Well, from the playtesting I did manage to do, it appeared to me that conflicts take too long to play out. So, I wrote a conflict resolution alternate and wrote the beginnings of a mini story using those alternate rules to show how the rules work. Same bat place, same bat download.

Sorry for the double post, but there is no 'edit' button.

Opinions?

[Callan S.]

I think it delivers something alot smoother. It was quite fun to read and though I didn't really understand what was going on, the images it drew upon kept me reading on. Which is a really good foundation for someone being drawn to look into it further, to check it out more. But at the mo I don't understand d10-d10, or where attribute modifiers come from (like the -4 for the orcs broken arm). I don't really need to know for a pick a path thing anyway, as long as I can follow some dice rolling for dummies instructions

I started reading expecting a mini story. I know this probably ended up a playtest of the system, but keep in mind if you decided to go for a mini story, you don't want to just do examples.

On the other hand, what was on those two pages was a fun little read - it'd be better to accidently stray into fun examples rather than get into difficult to internalise rules (ie the problem I described before).

What was it like thinking about writing a mini game writing up the example? Was it different to crush it down to a short example - has that given you some perspective on the rest of the game? Your question about the damage descriptor is quite interesting - how is that handled in a pick a path? The player can't just say it to himself, it wont hold any water mechanically - so it makes you think about how descriptors are worked in.

Did you still need some help on that? You wrote some in for the example - could you just do that in the mini game, or is their choosing intended to be pivotal to system use.

[Narf the Mouse]

I was thinking of having two columns; have the rules on the left and the minigame on the right, so a person could read the example at the same time as they read the rules.
Or I could intersperse the rules in the story, but that could make it difficult to look up rules.
Or just keep them as two seperate documents, but then people would have to flip between them.

The best might be simple instructions in the story and keep the rules seperate. Maybe introduce rules one by one, expanding one part and explaining as I go?

Yeah - It's a simple dungeon crawl and I'd have to fill in the details after I run through it. Hopefully the next version will explain things further.

I don't think a minigame would work as well as a mini story. I can't see myself getting near the variety possible in the game, so I've decided to just do the story. Or...I don't have to know what the person chose. I can just have generic options, like 'If you killed the orc, go to page #', 'If you subdued the orc, go to page #', 'if you gained the orc as an ally, go to page #'. That might work. But I think I'll write the story first - It'll be easier and tell me whether a minigame is needed, as well as giving me a skeleton to hang the minigame on if I do write it.

[Narf the Mouse]

The conflict resolution rules can now use static difficulties and the mini story has been re-written for comprehensibility. I'm looking for feedback on rules density as well as general feedback.

[Callan S.]

Ooops, I used mini story and mini game interchangeably in my post above - I'm refering to a mini pick a path adventure with both.

Anyway, in terms of rules and example, I'd suggest doing both - one pdf is just pure example and a second is the same, except example is in one column and rules are in the other, right across from the relevant example.

Or...I don't have to know what the person chose. I can just have generic options, like 'If you killed the orc, go to page #', 'If you subdued the orc, go to page #', 'if you gained the orc as an ally, go to page #'.

Alternatively you have the person declare the stakes before knowing the next page options. Once they've resolved, you then list the options (eg, loot orc: page X, travel with orc to his village: page X, whip your riding orc and ride him up the hill: page X). The player then chooses the one that is closest to the stake he set and won.

[Narf the Mouse]

Yeah, I'll write the game story first, then see if I need a 'pick a path' adventure.

That makes sense, except one rules-only, one examples-only and one both. Shouldn't be too hard to mix them.

Hmm...Could do that with some sort of 'Spoiler Space' endline...

Thanks. Um, is anyone else reading this thread?

[The Dragon Master]

I am. I just don't have much to add on top of what has been said till I've had an opportunity to read the file.