D&D ran like an indie rpg - almost

[Ry]

This all happened at the York D&D Meetup, about 20 people were in attendance.  I recently got tired of developing my own system so I made sure to come out to have some fun DMing.  I was well-prepared to run an adventure called Gorgoldand's Gauntlet (author pointed out the link, it's legitimately available and was originally part of a Dungeon Magazine freebie disc) with a few small modifications, most importantly including Paizo Goblins.

Explicit Rules Variants:
Epic 6th Level rules (low-powered D&D).  Since this was a 1st-level module, that cap wasn't really "in play."  But prior experience with the rule indicates it works as intended (keeping the game in the low-power end while maintaining character growth).
Conviction (players each have 5 action points for re-rolling a die.
Players Roll All The Dice (as written, which gives the players a slight edge on defense) - this variant means that any d20 roll is done on the player side.  All of the DM's rolls are converted to static numbers, all static ACs / DCs on the players side are converted into die rolls.

Implicit Rules Differences:
I left the rules alone.  I didn't look at any stat blocks or target DCs throughout the event.  While I have run the adventure before, I'm no stats-library, so I ballparked, using this method, for calculating DCs for all action resolution.  Damage was done "normally", but again, ballparked based on a general experience with D&D

The game ran extremely well; while I'd prepared a board and we had tokens to indicate position, the players spent their time looking at each other and me, talking about the puzzles, and interacting with the goblins (which I voiced like characters from the movie Labyrinth).  Each action resolved quickly and I made sure not to force rolls that didn't have any consequences.

One player was less engaged than the others, and I think the rules were one of the reasons (he seemed like more of a "come for the hanging-out rather than the game" kind of player, which is fine).  He picked a half-orc fighter, and while he was engaged and interested during other situations - and even with other events in combat - on his own turn, "walk up to enemy, roll attack, roll damage" was done with a sigh.  This stuck out for me because everything else in the adventure (intimidating goblins, working on puzzles) I seemed to have the whole group, but combat was a downer, despite being fast.  I think he wanted to do some things that were more creative with his combat, but as it was there wasn't much sense in lowering his odds of success by doing special manouevres when he could thwack away with strong odds.

I'm aware of the idea of making each roll have stakes of +2/-2, but I doubt having that option available would have done much good because he was up against low-level opponents that were killable in 1 hit.  I'm also concerned that given the fact he had an advantage to hit, he could easily have set constantly-favorable stakes without much concern that he would roll low enough to miss.

So my question is: What techniques can you strap onto a system like D&D to specifically allow players to raise the stakes?

[GregStolze]

Hm.  Combat specific, an obvious answer is, "Let him try to kill more than one with a single hit."  I've often wondered what D&D (and the D20 system in general) would look like if you swung it something like this.

Yeah, you can try to do one thing and roll 1d20 to do it.  Or you can try two things and roll 2d10 for each.  Or three at 3d8 (okay, yeah, imperfect math), four at 4d6 (again) or five at 5d4.  Now your badass with the high modifier might still miss the goblins if he's trying to clearcut five of them with one swing.

-G.

[Narf the Mouse]

Hmm...Take all the feats. Allow everyone to use any feat they want. Tack on penalties. Apply those penalties to the roll if the feat is used.

No idea how that would work, but it's been hanging around my head for making D&D combat more interesting.

[Ry]

I'm hesitant about messing around with the mechanics in any way that would cascade through the system, because re-writing a PHB is something I've done before and dno't wish on anyone.  I'd rather have something more along the lines of

At any time, a player can choose to make a 'raise' before rolling their d20s.  The terms of the raise are up to the player, but the GM can either accept ("Call") or decide "no bet."

For example: "I attack the goblin, raise you a decapitation frightening his buddies against me falling prone."   "Call."

"I attack the goblin, raise you 2d6 damage against 2d6 damage" "Call."

[sarendt]

I really like the way your thinking here, it sounds really simple, but still quite fun!  Also it helps get the players to act up, or create interesting events on their own, which is also a nice part of the idea.

My only question is would the die roll be modified any, would their be a -5 to try to decapitate or would the standard role still be used?

-scott

[Ry]

I would prefer to leave modifiers to the actual underlying rules, and simply decline raises that were too favorable.  So if the fighter has a 95% chance of hitting the goblin, the raise could be

"OK, if I hit, I decapitate the goblin and his friends are frightened.  If I miss, I'm on the ground grappled by 5 goblins and I take 2d6 damage."

[Narf the Mouse]

That, actually, sounds better and is somewhat like the resolution rules I'm currently using for my own RPG.

[Ry]

I ran this by one of my regulars via e-mail, he suggested that if a player does this, they can't use Conviction (action points) to influence the roll.  He probably has a point there.

[Ben S.]

[Valvorik]

I would love to see more AP in detail of your sessions using this variant.  The link to the Epic 6th level appears broken.

For combat and "more feats/less magic" I suggest checking out Iron Heroes from Monte Cook.

Another issue to deal with in D&D is the "turtling up" of "we rest for day once we feel we've had it".  The system is built around encounters of EL = total of character levels in party per day (thus the assumption in a 4 character part of the same level, 4 encounters of that level).  I suggest if players face fewer encounters, since their day is less risky, they should receive a reduction in earned XP.  I think you need to do things to D&D to make it a "reward risk" system to get "real heroism" without making players "working against the system" by avoiding risks.

PS - joined indie rpg toronto recently, hope to cross paths!

[Ry]

I can't edit my post above, the old thread was merged so the new location is

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=200045

Valvorik - welcome to the group; I've only been in indierpg for a bit, but if you want to hook up for some E6 action, drop me a line ryanstoughton(ahem)hotmail.com

[James_Nostack]

Ryan, I want to read the entire post, but first: kudos on the "Epic 6" version.  I have been dicking around with a Level 12 Cap version of D&D for about a year now--nothing as simple or effective as yours.  But I can imagine how much fun it would be to play: none of the wacky high-end complications, and characters who are powerful yet not laughably so.

Congratulations on an excellent idea and what looks like a very satisfying implementation in play.

(Also: welcome to the Forge for all the new people, etc. etc.)

[Ry]

THanks for the kind words - they're a salve after some of the places E6 got crossposted.

Anyway, I ran the raise mechanic by some of my other players (still no game until at least next week, depending on scheduling).  They like the idea; some say they will use it to get around the mechanics they hate, i.e. "I raise you grappling my opponent at the end of the swing against me getting knocked back down the stairs."  That skips the tedium of the grappling rules... or it knocks the player down the stairs.  Win-win.

[Valvorik]

Part of what I like about Epic 6th, if I'm getting it right, is that it allows a believable setting obeying its rules which "feels" more like a traditional fantasy setting.  A battlefield with a fireball now and again is nasty but one with meteor swarms is just silly (as in why would anyone ever put a bunch of soldiers in one place then).  If you want to run a Malazan/Black/Company/LOTR etc. feeling game it's all much easier with no need to explain "why the 16th level wizard hasn't already dealt with this problem".

Is it still a "dungeon" heavy game as run?

Ryan, thanks for coordinates, I will e-mail you.

[Ry]

I wouldn't say it's a dungeon-heavy game, but there is the occasional dungeon.  My style in GMing comes more from TV and movies than from wargames or board games, and I find the pacing of any complex with more than 5-10 real "rooms" to be pretty disastrous.