[DITV] Question

[JC]

hi

had a little problem during our last session

I'll go into the specifics of the scene, but I think the problem's more of a general one

here's what happened:

the Dogs get called to help a woman give birth

she is a second wife, and the jealous first wife has called demons to try and kill her during childbirth

we hesitate a little about what kind of dice the GM (myself) should have, and decide to go with "generic demonic opposition" (not the exact term, but you know what I mean)

the deciding factor was that the sorceress herself was not present in the scene

so that gives me 4d6 + 2d10 to play with

now, both Dogs together rolled waaaay more dice than that (I know they can only raise one after the other, but still)

the conflict was over before it started, which was a little anticlimactic

I could have scraped some extra dice together with improvised stuff, but it was never going to be even close

I think I should have used the sorcerer's dice instead of the generic ones, even if she wasn't around to talk to the Dogs and whatnot

another possibility I can think of is turning up the demonic manifestations at that point so I can go up to 4d6 + 4d10

how would you have played it?

and do you generally find that using 4d6 + demonic influence is enough to make for interesting conflicts?

[5niper9]

[JC]

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[oliof]

Generic 4d6+demonic influence dice are nothing you can set against a posse of dogs and expect that to be climactic.

That said, I'd certainly have used the first wife's traits as her hate and envy surely feed the demons fervor trying to kill the mother and/or baby. Also, improvised 'belongings' can be used to get more d6es (i.e. "the demons try to strangle the unborn baby; you see strong arms writhing inside the womans womb"; assigning the baby a d6, possibly adding "first wife wishes the second one to suffer and die 2d8").

Also, I'd probably have the first wife be there, seemingly helpful, but posing her as the opponent (so the players know, but not the dogs). Maybe the husband as well, as he hinders the dogs because he wants them to reassure him that all will be well, which puts enough of a distraction on them so one of them has to turn away from the demons/childbearing second wife to keep the husband from interfering.

[Moreno R.]

Hi JC!  (sorry, I don't remember your name)

Mmmm...    I don't think I would have used a demon attack, alone, in the first place.  It's a little too "high fantasy" for my taste, and Dogs are SUPPOSED to be able to banish them without having too much problems about it (they are the hand and the voice of the all-powerful king of lifa. There is a reason because the demons act with human agents instead of just attacking)

I see demons in the game more as color (and a little bonus on the sorcerer's dice), but not as true opponents. The most dangerous opponents in the game are people.

Regarding the dice, I would't give the demons more. It would be very depressing for the dog's faith to not be able to banish a demon with the ceremony to banish demon, holding the book of life in hand. But it seems that you forgot to use the demonic influence dice (that is a big, big difference).

With the demonic influence you should have at least 6d10, and with 6d10, if the demons is subtle enough, you can force some difficult decision on a dog (if the demon go, blazing in brimstone, on the front door against three dogs ready for it, I think even so many D10 will not be enough.  Helping each other three dogs can raise with a 40, and bye bye demon...)

[lumpley]

Thing one: It's true, you should have gone up to 4d6+4d10 as soon as the players (not the Dogs, the players!) knew that there was a sorceress. However, it's also true, the demonic influence by itself is never going to be enough dice, even so.

Thing two: The sorceress isn't there, but she must have some way of acting in the scene, since it's her action that threatens the mother's life. She's the opponent, even if she's not there, so roll her dice - but keep your raises and sees consistent with her ability to act in the scene. (This is what it means to set the supernatural dial, by the way.)

Thing two, sub: Even though the sorceress isn't there, you can still totally give her the dice benefits for becoming possessed. This is hardcore, and good.

-Vincent

[JC]

Hi JC!  (sorry, I don\\\'t remember your name)

Mmmm...    I don\\\'t think I would have used a demon attack, alone, in the first place.  It\\\'s a little too \\\"high fantasy\\\" for my taste, and Dogs are SUPPOSED to be able to banish them without having too much problems about it (they are the hand and the voice of the all-powerful king of lifa. There is a reason because the demons act with human agents instead of just attacking)

I see demons in the game more as color (and a little bonus on the sorcerer\\\'s dice), but not as true opponents. The most dangerous opponents in the game are people.

Regarding the dice, I would\\\'t give the demons more. It would be very depressing for the dog\\\'s faith to not be able to banish a demon with the ceremony to banish demon, holding the book of life in hand. But it seems that you forgot to use the demonic influence dice (that is a big, big difference).

With the demonic influence you should have at least 6d10, and with 6d10, if the demons is subtle enough, you can force some difficult decision on a dog (if the demon go, blazing in brimstone, on the front door against three dogs ready for it, I think even so many D10 will not be enough.  Helping each other three dogs can raise with a 40, and bye bye demon...)

JC really is my name, so I\\\'m glad you don\\\'t remember me by another

I don\\\'t think I forgot the demonic influence dice

it says in the rulebook that when there\\\'s no clear opposition, the GM rolls 4d6, plus somewhere between 1d10 and 4d10, depending on how much demonic influence the Dogs have witnessed so far

in this case, they were seeing demonic attacks, but hadn\\\'t yet witnessed heresy

so I got 4d6 + 2d10

correct?

[JC]

Thing one: It\\\'s true, you should have gone up to 4d6+4d10 as soon as the players (not the Dogs, the players!) knew that there was a sorceress.

aha!

I thought the number of d10s depended on what the PCs knew, not the players

IMHO, that would be something to clarify in the text of the next edition

However, it\\\'s also true, the demonic influence by itself is never going to be enough dice, even so.

right, interesting

is that because conflicts against \\\"nothing in particuler\\\" are not as interesting as conflicts against people, and so should be dealt with quickly?

Thing two: The sorceress isn\\\'t there, but she must have some way of acting in the scene, since it\\\'s her action that threatens the mother\\\'s life. She\\\'s the opponent, even if she\\\'s not there, so roll her dice - but keep your raises and sees consistent with her ability to act in the scene. (This is what it means to set the supernatural dial, by the way.)

Thing two, sub: Even though the sorceress isn\\\'t there, you can still totally give her the dice benefits for becoming possessed. This is hardcore, and good.

OK, gotcha

will definitely play it that way in the future

[5niper9]

Is that because conflicts against "nothing in particuler" are not as interesting as conflicts against people, and so should be dealt with quickly?

Well, as I see it, the most interesting part of Dogs is when people get judged. And since you can not judge nature (and expect any consequences) it is not meant to be interesting, at least not as interesting as the main conflicts.

Thing two: The sorceress isn't there, but she must have some way of acting in the scene, since it's her action that threatens the mother's life. She's the opponent, even if she's not there, so roll her dice - but keep your raises and sees consistent with her ability to act in the scene. (This is what it means to set the supernatural dial, by the way.)

[Moreno R.]

Thinking about it a little more, and remembering a thread I read some time ago about Conflict Resolution, I thought of this:

In that scene, what is the conflict? The dogs want to save the mother, but who want to kill her? The demon? No, the demon is following orders. He wouldn't attack her by himself. It's the Sorceress who want to kill her.

So, the conflict is between the Dogs and the Sorceress, even if she is not present. The demon isn't a opponent in the game, the demon is A RAISE!  (and some dices for the npc help he provides).

[Filip Luszczyk]

Well, I've been suggesting to go the Sorcerer route from the start I like the suggestion about using flashbacks as Raises, however - it would make conflicts without the opposition's presence very flexible.

I think we've hit 3d10 in Demonic Influence, as after talking with the Steward we've got some hints about the heresy. Not that it would change much. (Also, by the rules, Demonic Influence doesn't go above 5d10.)

[lumpley]