Some help with a concept - Gods and gutterfolk

[Christian Liberg]

Hey guys.

I am working on a concept at the moment, and i hope to air some of my ideas and hear if you got any ideas.

first of all, the concept is a game partially played online and partially played table top. and a storyline/game that freely involves eachother

the gods game are played online, my ideas are it should be a turn based game. The gutterfolk game somewhat resembles a D&D game or some other gamist show.

Shortly the gods build a primary race, and their habitat in cooperation with the game-controller. this primary race, are being placed on a canvas, in a random place, but afar from eachother. The gods then create and describe their races history and every aspect of its culture, creating a world, in where the gutterfolk play.

Have any of you heard about such a game, and could anybody direct me to info? secondly, have anyone got any ideas of how such a game could work?

[Christian Liberg]

Hey everybody again.

Okay so nobody apparently knew of such a game, or perhaps i didnt explain it well enough.

There are two parts of this game.

first part is a strategy game, not much unlike a axis and allies or risk game. in where you play gods, caring for your race, and creating the habitat in which your race live. as the game continues, you as the god create the details of the world. As the world evolves, and your race grows, the world are filled with more and more detail. the strategy part of the game, is intended to be played on the net, and once each month or so, the people playing gods, are meeting for a a game of gutterfolk.

The gutterfolk part of the game, takes place in the world created by the gods, in a one day or more session created fantasy game. The fantasy game are going to be a D&D sort of game, d20 rules.

the intention of both games are for the players to play in a fantasy world, and enabling the players to have much more impact on the fantasy world in which they play, than they normally would.

For the gods part of the game, i intend to make it turn based, with action points corresponding to the years. The amount of action points decide how many actions the gods can do. I havent gotten completely around to what actions the gods can actually do, except lower/raise their races fertility and agression, as well as create other races.

another interesting metric i intend to create is to have 2 versions of currency so to speak Might and Dark Might. Might is fuel for the gods actions. Dark might is roughly the same, but aquired in another way. The dark might is however somewhat easier to use than regular might ( sort of the equivalent of the dark side, being corruptive ). The dark might also has greater options, and are in a way more powerful ( im not quite sure how this is going to work ).

When a dark might point are being used, something stirs in the psyche, a dark fragment is created and every time a dark might point is used, the twin psyche grows stronger. when the twin psyche grows stronger than the current amount of might and dark might, a sundering happens.

The sundering is the creation of a god from the remnants of the older gods divinity. this god creates a new race, furthering detailing the world.

I have more ideas boiling in the back of my head, but this is pretty much the gist of it.

Any ideas or comments?

Christian Liberg

[Christian Liberg]

I am trying to answer the big three, for the god version of the game.

1. What is the game about?
The game is about creating every nook and cranny of the world. Creating a detailed world, with every part of the fantasy flavour of eragon, lord of the rings, prince of persia and so on.

2. What do the characters do?
The characters play a strategy game, caring for their primary race, nurturing them and hindering the other races progression.

3. What do the players do?
The players partake in a strategy game, putting in their turns, ( perhaps in a phase way like the board game Attack! ) Secondly the characters play in the world they themselves created.

I am not sure about the gutterfolk game, i intend to use the rules for old 2nd edition ad&d but perhaps i need to modify some of the rules a bit.

any comments or ideas?

[hix]

Some questions that occured to me, Primordia (what's your real name, by the way? I'm Steve) ...

- How much detail do you think you need to create before you can start playing the gutterfolk section? Specifically, you've noted you want to create 'every nook and cranny of the world'. Why do you feel you need to?
- What do the gutterfolk characters do?
- Do the gutterfolk characters affect the god characters? If so, how?
- Why does the god game section need a game-controller/GM figure?

If any one of those questions sounds like something you want to expand on, feel free to focus on it. Personally, I'm probably least interested in the last question. With the first two questions, I guess I'm angling towards asking "What is the Situation in this game? What are the conflicts that the characters need to address, and how do the players create them?"

[contracycle]

I don't see way way to coordinate the two phases. The god game is going to need to move in large units of time, otherwise you never get any feedback from your actions. But that means that that years pass in the gutterfolk game. One of two things will happen - either the two games will diverge in era almost immediately, rendering the relationship purely nominal; or, the gutterfolk game will have to be played to conclusion before the next single turn of the god game can occur, which is going to make it so slow and irregular as to be worthless.

[Christian Liberg]

Hey Steve, im Chris ( Christian actually )

great some input, this game is in no way perfect, in fact im not even sure it can be done, but sometimes i cook up strange things

Im going to ask your questions in another order, so i dont need to skip back and forth.

- How much detail do you think you need to create before you can start playing the gutterfolk section

There are no set amount of detail needed to be able to play the gutterfolk section, in fact as soon as the GM/narrator sees a possibility for a conflict in the gutterfolk perspective, there is a possibility to play there.

It is not necesarry to create every nook and cranny to play in the gutterfolk campaign. However i intend to give the players a possibility to make ( and break ) the world as they see fit.

- Why does the god game section need a game-controller/GM figure?

I intend to mimic the concept of many computer games, in that respect that the gods know very little of the canvas on which they create their primary race. For instance they only know the part of the world where their primary race has ventured. In fact if the space is not occupied or touched by any other, the god himself has to create the area there ( foliage, climate and so on and so forth ) In order for the mechanic of the black veil to be in effect i need a method to seperate the players section of their maps from eachother.

Do the gutterfolk characters affect the god characters? If so, how?

It is my intention in some point in the game, to have the possibility of gods sending a message to the gutterfolk, enabling the gutterfolk to help the gods in some missions. Depending on the success of the gutterfolk, the gods are more or less successful in a given envoy.

One such a mission could be to send a exploration party across the world. This could give god A a look over god B's areas, and countries.

- What do the gutterfolk characters do?

The gutterfolk characters are not the same, or at least they seldom are. They give the god players to "play-test" their world so to speak.

There is a conflict in the game, the gods are at conflict, like so many other strategy games the players play against eachother. this gives the gutterfolk's their conflict.

this seems a bit rumbled, but let me explain a bit about how i intend for this game to run on a grand scale.

the game runs for 2 months or 8 turns, this is done solely via email. on one of these turns one of the gods have business to be done in the world below ( even though they are gods, they are not allmighty nor omniscient ) One of the gods then calls for a gutterfolk game, set with a specific goal, adjucated by the GM. This game lasts for night or so.

i intend to aim for a bit of strange hybrid between board games and roleplaying game. The reason for this sort of strange design, is mostly due to my regular group. For a good while ( 16 years ) we played each week. Now however we are having trouble finding just a saturday a month to play in ( children, wives, jobs and so on takes up all our time ) When we do get together, we usually just sit around playing a board game. This strange hybrid is my  contribution to get our gaming group up again, with some sort of unity again.

allthough the concept of the game is a direct contest between the players, the real idea of the game is to create a living world, with a little of all our players in it.

concerning the coordination.

I don't see way way to coordinate the two phases. The god game is going to need to move in large units of time, otherwise you never get any feedback from your actions. But that means that that years pass in the gutterfolk game. One of two things will happen - either the two games will diverge in era almost immediately, rendering the relationship purely nominal; or, the gutterfolk game will have to be played to conclusion before the next single turn of the god game can occur, which is going to make it so slow and irregular as to be worthless.

I agree the coordination is a tricksy part, specifically in the part of the gutterfolk campaign.

My idea was to create the gods game in turns of 10 years, and the gutterfolk game to last no more than 8-9 hours ( somewhat similar to the con games ive been to ) This means that there isnt a "bond" to the gutterfolk character, i am hoping that this will cause a bond to the world itself instead.

Hope this makes it abit clearer, and that you get an idea of what i intend to do. Hopefully allowing you to drill some more into my ideas, cause i could really need some sparring

Chris

[Christian Liberg]

Oh i quite forgot.

I do not intend for the gutterfolk game to advance in technology, so the things being done in turn 2 is the same as in turn 200 even though there are almost 2000 years in between.

I am working under the idea that few gutterfolk characters will be the same from gutterfolk session to gutterfolk session.

All my ideas are pretty much still a big mess, inside my head, so if there is something i presented unclear or if its still hazy in some way, please ask again, and i will do my best to explain.

Chris

[hix]

Hi Chris,

Can I clarify something - in the god game, you want the GM to act as a hub? The players communicate only with the GM, not with each other.  That means they don't know anything about each other's lands.

However in the gutterfolk game, everybody will be playing face-to-face together in (I assume) one particular god's land.

If that's right, will the players who aren't the god of that land gain a strategic advantage in the god game? it seems to me they'll have the advantage of through that gutterfolk adventure and seeing what that particular god has created without exposing anything about themselves.

---

And another clarification - characters in the gutterfolk game act as proxies for the gods, and they resolve conflicts between the gods. Is that right?

[hix]

Sorry, that third paragraph should read:

If that's right, will the players who aren't the god of that land gain a strategic advantage in the god game? It seems to me they'll have the advantage of playing through that gutterfolk adventure and seeing what that particular god has created without exposing anything about themselves.

[Christian Liberg]

hey Steve.

Yes that is very close to the mark, good clarifications there.
in the gods game the gm should act as a hub, completely correct.

in the gutterfolk game, the game could be in either of the gods lands, and will be so at random. Yes its true that there will be a strategic advantage to seing another persons lands before hand, while giving no details of your own contries. That was one of the reasons why i wanted to put some incentive for the gods ( and hence the players ) to have gutterfolk missions in their own lands.

On the third note

characters in the gutterfolk game act as proxies for the gods, and they resolve conflicts between the gods. Is that right?

well yes and no. I intended the gutterfolk game to be a game where they might act as ambassadors for the gods, but the gutterfolk game can also be something else entirely, revolving around native customs in any particular gods land, building the image of the race in any gods(players) imagination.

Im thinking that i would create a few type of missions for the gutterfolk sessions. One which is called for by the gods, and another one which is mainly descriptive, giving the players food for elaborating on the area their primary race already have established.

Now an important part i wanted to clarify, is that the gods themselves make very little actual buildings or the similar, they are more like a naturist gardener, which helps their plants to grow, giving them fertile ground, watering them, and so on and so forth.

Chris

[hix]

I am trying to answer the big three, for the god version of the game.

1. What is the game about?
The game is about creating every nook and cranny of the world. Creating a detailed world, with every part of the fantasy flavour of eragon, lord of the rings, prince of persia and so on.

2. What do the characters do?
The characters play a strategy game, caring for their primary race, nurturing them and hindering the other races progression.

3. What do the players do?
The players partake in a strategy game, putting in their turns, ( perhaps in a phase way like the board game Attack! ) Secondly the characters play in the world they themselves created.

I am not sure about the gutterfolk game, i intend to use the rules for old 2nd edition ad&d but perhaps i need to modify some of the rules a bit.

All of the bold is mine, for emphasis.

Thanks for the answers, Chris.  Especially your motivations for creating the game (to allow your existing group to play more easily). You might be ready to move on and talk about something else, but I just want to clarify something things from your answers for the Big Three.

First, is your game really about what you say it's about? Your answer to question one strikes me as quite clinical.  It doesn't grab me. Is the game really about creating the details in the world, or is there something more ... human that you're interested in? Compare the sections I've bolded in questions one and two.  Can you see how they're not compatible?

Your game could be about creating highly detailed sections of the world, or it could be about the conflict between gods trying to make sure that their version of reality comes out on top, or it could be about conflict between gutterfolk trying to do what they want (exercising free will) versus obeying the orders of their gods (following their fate).  Or something else completely.

Second, and this is just my feeling, your answers to the Big Three for the gutterfolk game should be very similar to your answers for the god game. Especially your answer to question one - I feel it should either be identical, or create an amazing amount of interplay between the two games.

---

So, personally, I'd like to see tighter, grabbier answers to the Big Three for both sides of the game, so I can see how they interact.

[Christian Liberg]

Hey Steve.

You ask all the right questions, i must say. I might have felt myself ready to move on to something else in the game creation process, but seeing you pointing these things out, i might need to stop up and go back in the process.



The game started because i wanted to create a world which held a little of everybody in my group. So i thought about how to make that happen. This was the birth of the gods world, knowing that the people would only come to love so much of the game, if it allowed them to partake in the action, the idea of the gutterfolk game followed. So actually the correct answer would propably not be to create every part of the world, but it is its desired output.


New answers to the big three( greatly helped by the input from here )

1. What is the game about? GODS
The game is a strategical game of competitive expansion. For the gods this game is a game of jest and light amusement, much akin to boardplayers playing checkers or risk. True True the stakes are higher, but when a winner is found, nothing stops the gods from razing the board, and start anew.

1. What is the game about? GUTTERFOLK
The game is about Survival, enduring what tremendous slight and ill fortune that befalls the Gutterfolk. The game is about despair in lights of natures freakyness. It is a game about fighting for your life, at the gods amusement.

1. What is the game about? COMBINED
The game is about duality. The gods amusement could be the gutterfolks demise. A gods prank is one village's life.

2. What do the Characters do? GODS
The characters play a strategy game, caring for their primary race, nurturing them and hindering the other races progression.

2. What do the Characters do? GUTTERFOLK
The Gutterfolk fight for survival, fight against alien races, created by hostile gods of immense power. Tryes to battle earth quakes, and erupting volcanoes. Standing shoulder to shoulder with eachother, enduring the blight of the land.

2. What do the Characters do? COMBINED
Both sides play a part in a conflict not only between each other( gods ) but between some light entertainment, and hovering at deaths door.

3. What do the players do? GODS
The players create strategic disadvantages for the competition, at the same time creating strategic advantages for themselves.

3. What do the players do? GUTTERFOLK
The players play their characters against the will of the other gods and trying to enact the mission presented by an unknown player.

3. What do the players do? COMBINED
Players experience how some peoples light amusement, is damaging and for some terrible. They also exhilerate in the demise of the gutterfolk, wreaked by any particular god.

Hmmm ive come a long way from my old concept, and im not sure this really fits it, but it seems the right ideas at the time, apt to change any time

Chris

[hix]

Sweet! I particularly like this:

What do the players do? GUTTERFOLK
The players play their characters against the will of the other gods and trying to enact the mission presented by an unknown player.

That bolded bit explains why you'd like to use a GM as a hub in the god game. When the gutterfolk game starts, players won't know exactly which of the other players they're benefitting.

<brainstorm>That means players probably have an incentive to deliberately fail the mission, or the player whose mission it is could hand out bribes (perhaps secretly) to convince other players to succeed. </brainstorm>

There's a whole bunch of possibilities in there, which should probably be considered a little later in the process.

---

You've been answering the Big Three. Does that mean you're familiar with the Power 19? If so, answering Questions 4 and 5 might be good next steps:

4.) How does your setting (or lack thereof) reinforce what your game is about?

5.) How does the Character Creation of your game reinforce what your game is about?

Check here for Troy's expanded commentary on what each question in the Power 19 are for.

Alternatively, what's the next step you want to take?