Power 19 For Kung Fu Game

[Willow]

[Adam Dray]

I think Power 19s scare people sometimes. That probably explains the deadening silence you received. I think this game idea is awesome and I hope you pursue it.

A:  So how about that character creation idea?  I'm pretty jazzed about it, but I want to see how other people react.

I think it's awesome. I need to understand better how the Story paragraphs translate to twiddly abilities though, or are they treated as unstatted flags? Will you provide procedures, guidance, or advice for how to write a good Past/Present/Future story? Is the Future a guaranteed thing or is it just a hope and dream?

I'd like to see Present and Future feed into some kind of formalized GM system for generating conflict. You said (in #6) that you stomp on a character's dreams if the player fails to step on up. I assume Future feeds into this. Perhaps the GM gets to rewrite or add one sentence of the player's Future when he fails, and the player may rewrite or add one sentence when he succeeds.

B:  How can I actively reward the players for having their characters be awesome kung fu badasses?

I think I just answered part of that (what is the nature of the reward?).

The other part is, what is rewarded? I get the impression you know exactly what kind of behavior you want to reward, yet in #6 you say you don't know. Do you not want to reward acting like a kung fu badass? Do you not want to reward extremely intelligent, creative, and opportune choice and use of tactical, strategic, and logistical character abilities? That is, if players Step On Up, their characters succeed, and they get new special powers that give them new chances to Step On Up versus more difficult challenges. It's an endless awesome circle, like in D&D.

You actively reward them by giving them more abilities that increase their badass potential. You actively reward them by giving them tougher challenges that test their new increased badassery.

C:  Are there any games out there I should take a look at that have similar design goals?

Dungeons & Dragons 3.5.
World of Warcraft.

And I'm totally serious.

[vikingmage]

It might help to look at HEROWARS ... player character creation in that system starts with the player writing a story about their character.
I have never tried it with a group, but it does sound like an interesting method.

Feng Shu is another game I would try out. I thought it really cornered the market in Martial Arts Badassery, but I might be mistaken. Certainly the concept of running along a stream of bullets being fired at your character to deliver a good kick in the face to the bad guy has to rate as a first class idea! Certainly when my group played Feng Shu our GM berated us for being way to cautious. We were playing a very tactical game ... and he just wanted us to go running in with feet and fists flying.. After having that explained to us we ripped into the system like banshees.

[Callan S.]

I'm not sure what mode of play is being aimed at, after all 'Participate in really tactical combats that focus on elements of the characters' backgrounds' happens in Capes as well.

How can I actively reward the players for having their characters be awesome kung fu badasses?

There's a compelling kind of issue in the alpha male component of martial arts movies - that pitting of themself, just their essense of muscle and reflex, against adversity, without any uncertainty as to whether they should. What drives that? It's an interesting question.

Does that ring a bell at all? If not, why are they awesome? "My god, it's cause they..." fill in the blank and tell me!

[Adam Dray]

I'm pretty sure she said "step on up" in there, Callan. I'm assuming that's Gamist play, not Narrativist play with tactics.

[Willow]

Thanks everyone who replied, especially Adam for breaking the silence.

Adam-
Right now, the Present/Future paragraphs are big honkin flags.  They don't do much other than tell the GM what the adventures are supposed to be about.  I've been pondering a framework for campaign creation, where you have say a chain of five adventures scattered about focusing on a given character's destiny, and you mix all of them together.

If you have your future as "I will reforge the Empire," you'll have the chance.  It's the GM's job to throw oppotunities in your path to do this.  They don't have to be easy, and it's better if stuff you want is caught in the crossfires- because if you fail to Step On Up, the Imperial MacGuffin gets destroyed, and you need to find another way to enforce your claims...

I think you're absolutely right about the cycle of power.  And I think I've figured out exactly what it needs to be that triggers gaining bigger numbers and awesomer abilities on your character sheet- doing stuff based on your Present/Future hooks.

Vikingmage-

Is that the same as Runequest?  There's certainly some similarities going on.

Callan-

I'd call it Gamist play, something that I wouldn't call Capes.
And yeah, I'm totally with you on that.  Why are wandering kung fu badasses, well, badass?  Because they've got that extra drive that other people don't.

[Adam Dray]

HeroWars is the Robin Laws rules-rewrite of Glorantha, Greg Stafford's world for RuneQuest. The game system is nothing like RuneQuest. It does have some very clever mechanics that take paragraphs and turn them into characters. You ought to check it out just for that. It's a Narrativist-supporting game though.

[Filip Luszczyk]

Ouch, I totally forgot about this thread

In short, this sounds interesting. I'd like to see this game.

How do you plan to deal with creating challenges for the players here? Is it the usual GM fiat thing, or maybe you plan some form of budgeting, challenge ratings or whatever? Also, how long do you expect preparing challenges to take? One of the things that drove me off games like Exalted or d20 (and Weapons of the Gods is probably similar in this regard) was that writing up interesting opposition with sufficient mechanical detail could easily take hours, and winging it in play never felt quite right to me.

[Willow]

Filip- I know exactly what you're talking about.  Back in college, I ran a 3.5 game for over a year that went from 5th level up to 15th.  I like my adventures to be epic in scope, so believe me I spent hours upon hours statting up bad guys for the next week's session.  I don't have anywhere near the time nor the inclination to do that anymore.

I'm likely going to need some sort of challenge rating system- if your group has had this much advancement, you want enemies that are about this tough, and a good list of stock antagonists ready to roll out.

[Adam Dray]

What I hate about D&D is its weak challenge rating system. Sure, the rules give you guidance about what an acceptable challenge is for any given party and it rewards players proportionate to threat, but I think a Gamist game should have clear procedures for building "fair" encounters.

Dogs in the Vineyard isn't a Gamist game, but it has a clear procedure for building situation for the players and its rules let the GM go ALL-OUT on the players without holding back.

I'd like to see a game like yours embrace the ALL-OUT GM-vs-player Gamism with clear, fair rules to make that happen. The GM should come to the table with a handful of encounters and an evil gleam in his eye. He should be able to say, "I've cooked up a wickedly evil challenge for you tonight. Let's see if you survive!" and the players should rub their hands together and know that their survival is dependent on their own choices, not the GM being kind. The GM and players should play out their sides with full gusto and see who wins. Of course, the game should be tipped in favor of the players, because you do want characters to survive most of the time, but it can't be a sure thing. Players should be nervous in every encounter equal to their station.

[vikingmage]

Thanks Adam for fielding the Herowars question!

Selecting appropriate challenges for parties is a real nightmare. My game system is totally Gamist, with a number of our players loving the whole POWER concept. I find myself constantly needing to keep a track on their stats/magic items to prevent them walking over my challenges. I have foolishly put no limit on stats (like the MMORPG's) the difference between level one characters agility and a level 10 character could be 30 points. This builds epic HERO level characters which is what the players enjoy, but with the scale shifting upward all the time you need to be very careful about challenge setting.
I agree with D&D having a weak challenge rating system. I soon learned to ignore the daft "Suitable for a party of 6 Level 5-8 players" on the fronts of the scenarios in the 80's. I was always having to tinker with the scenarios to make them a challenge for my gamist players.

[Callan S.]

Willow (& Adam Drey),

The game will punish not Stepping on Up for the combats- if you don't, all your character's hopes and dreams will get stepped on by the villains. It's very Gamist in that regard.

It might be easier to imagine I come to your game - and I casually, without any feeling or emotion, let my characters hopes and dreams get stepped on, and then I win the game for the night, pretty clearly from having used that tactic.

I've won the game - which is the important thing. Or...does it bother you that I didn't feel any concern or sympathy for my character, all I wanted was the win?

[Willow]

Ah, but you've lost.  Because not getting your hopes and dreams stepped on was the prize for victory.

A lot of games throw around 'winning,' as a term, but this isn't a game that has a 'win condition.'

[DanielM]

Just some thoughts on the original post.
First, how to use character advancement in a flavorful way: Make it on the spot. Give characters 'character points' to buy better stats, but allow the spend at any point, even mid combat round.
Example:
GM: Yeah, you're getting battered by the evil Emperor Lo and his Lo Guard. Having killed your mentors and most of the villagers, he's trying to get the Rubies of Zod. John and Sam are at half health/HP/whatever, and the Princess Queen Zarta is in grave danger. What do you do?
Player: I spend all my exp from last adventure to raise my Kung Fu by one and get the Adroit Turtle Technique. "You haven't won yet, Lo. I have one trick my master taught me all those years ago. I will avenge his death! Adroit Turtle! Hi-yah!"

I've been pondering this for my own game for a while, and I like how it mimics martial arts movies. The characters will be battered senseless until they figures out the situation is grave enough to spend some Exp, then they cleans house.

2: As for the past/present/future thing, I like it, but I would tweak it. Make the PCs write two potential futures, one good, one bad. That way, they know exactly what they're fighting for. For example, if your good future is "Defend the kingdom from the greatest threat" the obvious 'bad' future is "let the kingdom fall to rubble under evil aggressors". Assuming the player has any investment in the setting, that will spark him to 'step up' and make sure he comes out victorious.

[Adam Dray]

2: As for the past/present/future thing, I like it, but I would tweak it. Make the PCs write two potential futures, one good, one bad. That way, they know exactly what they're fighting for. For example, if your good future is "Defend the kingdom from the greatest threat" the obvious 'bad' future is "let the kingdom fall to rubble under evil aggressors". Assuming the player has any investment in the setting, that will spark him to 'step up' and make sure he comes out victorious.

Very cool idea. Or let the player write the Good and let the GM write the Bad.