[Sorcerer] Going for the green belt

[5niper9]

Hi all,
we finished our second session playing sorcerer.
All of us got more insight to the system and as always with further knowledge there are more questions:

I tumble when I read this in the sorcerer book page 104:

The player has announced that the character is leaping over a barrier to come crashing down upon an opponent. The GM calls for a Stamina roll...

So here a player tries to accumulate bonus dice for the next roll (the actual combat roll). What opposes the player? In other words what does the GM roll?

Is it legit for a demon to target itself with the boost ability? That would produce really potent combat beasts (against normal humans).
Let's assume it is. The GM states for one antagonist demon that it will use boost stamina and attack James. Would it be okay for the player of James to announce this (before any dice got touched this round)?
"Can I roll Lore against his power (which is now one) so that James notices the boost and tries to banish/punish him."
So the action would be a snapshot banish/punish ritual supported by the victories of the spotting.

When I look at the end of chapter one in "Sex and Sorcery" (where you apply it to sorcerer) I wonder how that setup should work with a singular humanity for all three ways of sorcery. If all players would play only one sort of them ( all sanzoku, all Black Wheel) there is not much of a problem, but in every other way it looks arkward. I guess the answer to this either Ron never intended for these branches of sorcery to mix in one game at least not for player characters (I heard from a sanzoku-only game Ron ran at a con) or I'm lacking play experience that produces further insight.


Well, so much for now.
Greetings,
René

[Ron Edwards]

Hi René,

I want to give you the big Sorcerer tentacle-hug for being such a great contributor, and for trying the game, and everything. No sarcasm. I feel bad that I didn't post in the Schism Actual Play thread, but there wasn't much to add to it.

So here a player tries to accumulate bonus dice for the next roll (the actual combat roll). What opposes the player? In other words what does the GM roll?

This is where Dogs in the Vineyard improves significantly on Sorcerer, by standardizing the amount of opposition dice when the only opposition is the inherent perversity of one's surrounding existence. He calls it "Demonic Influence" in that game but specifies that it is just as easily and accurately called "Bad Luck." In Dogs, it's 4d10. In Sorcerer, that translates roughly to three dice of the appropriate source.

I didn't have the brains, however, to standardize it. Instead I included a chart in the core rulebook that tries to indicate "difficulty dice" relative to the acting character's score, which unfortunately really isn't a great way to think about it. That chart will work fine, but I have to admit, I usually just grab three dice and roll'em.

Is it legit for a demon to target itself with the boost ability? That would produce really potent combat beasts (against normal humans).

Technically, it's legitimate.

However, like many imagined applications of Boost, that's actually a poor tactic on the demon's part. Its Stamina (for instance) would be huge for a single action, yes, but its Power would be 1. Also, it would be exceeding twice its Stamina, by 1 at least, which carries consequences of its own as described in Chapter 4. And those consequences can't be avoided using Big or Vitality, because of the Power reduction.

I can imagine a few circumstances in which it wouldn't be so bad, like busting out of a prison or something like that, in which one big push is all that matters. But a demon gets a lot more bang per buck out of Special Damage.

The GM states for one antagonist demon that it will use boost stamina and attack James. Would it be okay for the player of James to announce this (before any dice got touched this round)?
"Can I roll Lore against his power (which is now one) so that James notices the boost and tries to banish/punish him."
So the action would be a snapshot banish/punish ritual supported by the victories of the spotting.

That's an excellent example of the free-and-clear phase of the conflict mechanics. However, your timing is off a little bit. The initial roll is James' noticing. It would be a Lore roll against the demon's Cover, or against 1 if the demon doesn't have Cover (notice I'm applying the Telltale rules). So the demon's Power isn't the issue.

If it were against Power, though, then it'd be against full Power, as the noticing and the Boosting would be opposed, and thus cannot be ordered.

When I look at the end of chapter one in "Sex and Sorcery" (where you apply it to sorcerer) I wonder how that setup should work with a singular humanity for all three ways of sorcery. If all players would play only one sort of them ( all sanzoku, all Black Wheel) there is not much of a problem, but in every other way it looks arkward.

Actually, it isn't awkward, because the definition of Humanity is exactly the same for all three paths: constructive outcomes from breaking the rules. That's my point in that diagram: that a given definition of Humanity can stand in for many axes of behavior. Using the dual Humanity rules described later in the text is far more advanced.

Best, Ron

[5niper9]

Hi Ron,
I always love to be tentacle hugged; not that that happens regularly or often ... uhhm whatever.

In Sorcerer, that translates roughly to three dice of the appropriate source.

Checked and written to the always-on-hand-paper.

However, like many imagined applications of Boost, that's actually a poor tactic on the demon's part. Its Stamina (for instance) would be huge for a single action, yes, but its Power would be 1. Also, it would be exceeding twice its Stamina, by 1 at least, which carries consequences of its own as described in Chapter 4. And those consequences can't be avoided using Big or Vitality, because of the Power reduction.

That makes sense.
The more I think about boost the less I like it. Just personally.
First when I looked at it I was like "WOW so much power in just one ability! Must have it!". Then we played and I was like "Phew much work for that amount of power.".
And now I think I would prefer something like Shadow, because bringing that into a fight a) is much cooler (my personal opinion) b) is a bit hard to accomplish (which I like) and most importantly c) I think it would entertain the other players.

That's an excellent example of the free-and-clear phase of the conflict mechanics. However, your timing is off a little bit. The initial roll is James' noticing. It would be a Lore roll against the demon's Cover, or against 1 if the demon doesn't have Cover (notice I'm applying the Telltale rules). So the demon's Power isn't the issue.

I guess this is the part of the green belt "exam" where my nose gets bumped.
Let's just assume there is this nasty demon (power/will 7) that uses Boost (just this round) in order to smash James like a fly.
The player of James sees the week spot in the action of the demon and wants to make the most of it.
James already knows that this thing is a demon and wants to banish it (in this round, because of the demon's lacking of power).
So his action in this round is actually the snapshot banish ritual. Even 1+humanity is probably not enough for the eight dice of the demon.
My idea was that he supports this by an additional roll to make the banish more likely (in form of spotting the demon's weakness beforehand).

So, did you misunderstood my intent or did I broke my knee while performing the spinning heel kick too early.

When I look at the end of chapter one in "Sex and Sorcery" (where you apply it to sorcerer) I wonder how that setup should work with a singular humanity for all three ways of sorcery. If all players would play only one sort of them ( all sanzoku, all Black Wheel) there is not much of a problem, but in every other way it looks arkward.

Actually, it isn't awkward, because the definition of Humanity is exactly the same for all three paths: constructive outcomes from breaking the rules. That's my point in that diagram: that a given definition of Humanity can stand in for many axes of behavior. Using the dual Humanity rules described later in the text is far more advanced.

There is this chior of angels in the back of my head that sings: "Transgression"
It not like you mentioned it in the text a few times. *cough* *cough*
I got stuck with that. For humanity always is linked with an aspect of what I hold high.
So I though mainly: He breaks the rules, this is a humanity check ... and was struck in a dead end.
I'm not sure whether I would use that setting, but at least it makes sense now.


But that is not all:
I have a few more questions in relation to Tokens.
I just have to give an example otherwise my questions would be to cryptical:
The sorcerer is a professional assasin.
His (object) demon is a curved dagger (with special damage).
His first mission is to kill the daughter of the king. She is very beatiful.
He does it and the actual death scene is like:
She stands on the balcony and looks over the kingdom. He creeps up from behind grabs her and slices her throat.
The player says: "Wow. This dagger has to be a token!"

So now the questions:
Could he use the bonus dice when he...

• kills the next victim from behind? In form of boosting his stamina or the demons power.
• sacrifices an human being for a summon with a throat cut? Supporting the token and supporting the ritual.
• sacrifices a animal for a summon with a throat cut? Supporting the ritual.
• fights someone face to face? In form of boosting his stamina or the demons power.

My guess is Yes - My god, yes - Not usually - Nope, no way.

Mainly everytime another player says (or could say): "Eww, like the princess on the balcony.". Is that correct?


So that's it for today.
Greetings,
René

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

First, the Boost question.

Let's just assume there is this nasty demon (power/will 7) that uses Boost (just this round) in order to smash James like a fly.
The player of James sees the week spot in the action of the demon and wants to make the most of it.
James already knows that this thing is a demon and wants to banish it (in this round, because of the demon's lacking of power).
So his action in this round is actually the snapshot banish ritual. Even 1+humanity is probably not enough for the eight dice of the demon.
My idea was that he supports this by an additional roll to make the banish more likely (in form of spotting the demon's weakness beforehand).

So, did you misunderstood my intent or did I broke my knee while performing the spinning heel kick too early.

Actually, I did misunderstand. I was thinking in terms of all this happening well before combat, when James didn't even know the demon was there, or whether it was a demon, or something like that. A pure ambush, not in the middle of a fight.

But OK, so his action is the Banish. It all comes down to the demon rolling its "attack James" dice and James rolling the Banish dice. I can see where your dilemma is coming from, because effectively, the way you're seeing it, is that the demon's getting two actions in one: Boost and attack.

But using an ability is an action. Typically, the demon is Boosting someone else, and the target hopes that the demon rolls Power really high and thus "hits" before that person acts, thus the action is Boosted.

However, in this case, the demon must perform the action of Boost. Sucks to be the demon. It won't be able to attack until the following round! What James is doing, then, is hoping to roll lower than the demon's Power roll for the Boost, in order to catch it after the Power drops to 1. This is no good for James, actually - he needs to roll high to beat the demon's eventual defensive roll, but lower than the demon's Power roll for the Boost. Sucks to be James too.

Here's what I'd suggest to James' player: (1) Do something else this round, something with a high chance of success. Hit the pre-Boosted demon as hard you can, or try a Lore roll of some kind, or go for total defense, and do your damndest to coordinate with someone else's action (especially if it doesn't matter who goes first). Narrate it such that the results, if successful, will roll into more dice for the action in the following round. (2) Banish for all you're worth. You know the demon's Power will be 1. Hope to roll higher than its attack. Depending on the scores in question, I might even recommend a Punish for the first action, because then the demon gets to add a measly 1 to its Stamina anyway (if it sticks with that tactic).

Clearly, no matter what, James is going to have to face that Boosted Stamina. If he wants to avoid that and shoot for the instant Banish before the demon has a chance to attack, then he'll have to do the risky thing in which he tries to roll high but not too high.

As far as Boost in general goes, I am very happy with the design of this ability. It does exactly what its name implies: it's a boost. It's not a power-card or game-breaker or anything else that adds anything positive except the boost itself.

Best, Ron

[Ron Edwards]

And now for the next questions.

The sorcerer is a professional assasin.
His (object) demon is a curved dagger (with special damage).
His first mission is to kill the daughter of the king. She is very beatiful.
He does it and the actual death scene is like:
She stands on the balcony and looks over the kingdom. He creeps up from behind grabs her and slices her throat.
The player says: "Wow. This dagger has to be a token!"

Let's stop here for a moment. I suggest that for the dagger to be a token, the death-scene should be a bit more ritualized. Maybe he seduces her and somehow convinces her to commit suicide. Maybe he calls upon Set to gaze upon this action and kills her using a particular throat-cut that is harder, not easier (perhaps allowing her a full defensive roll, for instance). But if he's just being an assassin, killing her for money, then the death doesn't carry any weight. The dagger needs to be recognized as the instrument of death in some kind of sorcerous, setting-specific way.

That sets up the answers for the next questions, as I think you can see.

Could he use the bonus dice when he...

    * kills the next victim from behind? In form of boosting his stamina or the demons power.

That would make sense if killing her as you described was good enough to make a token. But since it's not, this is No.

    * sacrifices an human being for a summon with a throat cut? Supporting the token and supporting the ritual.
    * sacrifices a animal for a summon with a throat cut? Supporting the ritual.

These would count as long as the throat-cut were handled in the same way, with the same kind of risk of failure.

    * fights someone face to face? In form of boosting his stamina or the demons power.

You are correct: no way.

Mainly everytime another player says (or could say): "Eww, like the princess on the balcony.". Is that correct?

Actually, that is correct - but I hope you can see that the "like" is based on more than merely a tactical situation which is handled tactically.

Best, Ron

[5niper9]

Well let's see.
I've got some more actual play experience since the last questions, but since this thread is still on page one of this forum I'll use this thread to ask my questions. All of these are picked right out of my actual play experience.

Have the conflicts build a "chain" to use the currency in ongoing conflicts?
Abstract example:
I want to archieve thing "D" (equals winning conflict D).
For that I will use conflict A which leads to conflict B which leads directly to conflict D.
I'm pretty sure I can use victories of each roll for the next one.
But to support conflict D can I throw in another conflict C which isn't related to A or B but leads to D?

Since I think this is legit, let me build the next question on the assumption that this is correct:
If conflict A would lead to conflict B AND conflict C could I use the victories of roll A twice? (Just like you use the victories of the binding roll again and again.)

Next question:
Is it usual that the Kicker get resolved after one session?
I'm pretty sure it is not, but we tend to come to this. Is this (or could it be) counterproductive?

Greetings,
René

[Eero Tuovinen]

This is where Dogs in the Vineyard improves significantly on Sorcerer, by standardizing the amount of opposition dice when the only opposition is the inherent perversity of one's surrounding existence. He calls it "Demonic Influence" in that game but specifies that it is just as easily and accurately called "Bad Luck." In Dogs, it's 4d10. In Sorcerer, that translates roughly to three dice of the appropriate source.

I didn't have the brains, however, to standardize it. Instead I included a chart in the core rulebook that tries to indicate "difficulty dice" relative to the acting character's score, which unfortunately really isn't a great way to think about it. That chart will work fine, but I have to admit, I usually just grab three dice and roll'em.

Wow, this is new to me. I mean, I didn't quite understand earlier why ever the difficulties for unresisted checks were determined as they were. I hope somebody is taking notes on this stuff for when I get to play Sorcerer again.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Eero,

What I was trying to get at, in that section, is that there is no such thing as an unopposed roll in Sorcerer. If something is unopposed, it's either guaranteed or impossible, with no need to roll. I do know I included that in the chart.

One might be opposed by circumstances just as much by a person trying to stop you.

Best, Ron

[5niper9]

Hi Ron,
additional to the questions in my last post (above Eero's post) let me add one question.
Here you said:

I might even recommend a Punish for the first action, because then the demon gets to add a measly 1 to its Stamina anyway (if it sticks with that tactic).

And I get puzzled. As I read Boost I thought it adds the whole power to a given score.
Or weren't you talking about the boost thing that adds 1 to it's Stamina?

Greetings,
René

[Ron Edwards]

Hi René,

I apologize for taking so long to answer these questions. I like to answer rules inquiries for my games right away, but this week hasn't granted many opportunities. And since your questions are now well established onto the green belt level, at least, they require more careful context for answering. Green-belt questions and concerns in Sorcerer usually concern over-interpreting and applying the rules, thinking that they are more free and extravagantly powerful than they are.

Have the conflicts build a "chain" to use the currency in ongoing conflicts?
Abstract example:
I want to archieve thing "D" (equals winning conflict D).
For that I will use conflict A which leads to conflict B which leads directly to conflict D.
I'm pretty sure I can use victories of each roll for the next one.
But to support conflict D can I throw in another conflict C which isn't related to A or B but leads to D?

You're over-valuing the currency. The outcome of A can help conflict B, without a problem. Let's say B is successful too, so now you have some victories "floating" there, perhaps usable for the next roll. But that's the point: the rule concerns the next roll, not "any action later resulting from B."

If the character's next roll concerns a conflict which could have been affected positively (for him) by the outcome of conflict B, then the victory dice can become bonus dice.

But that does not mean that any action by a character, later which might have been affected by the outcome of B, can use those dice in that way. That's not the rule.

In your example, conflict C is a new action that comes after B. If B doesn't affect C directly, then it gets no bonuses from B ... and here's the point that's relevant to your question, those bonuses from B are now lost. The only thing that will now affect D is the outcome of C.

So the options are A to B to C to D, in a direct line, or C to D, with the outcomes of A and B now firmly in the past.

Since I think this is legit, let me build the next question on the assumption that this is correct:
If conflict A would lead to conflict B AND conflict C could I use the victories of roll A twice? (Just like you use the victories of the binding roll again and again.)

Absolutely not. I think you can see why, given my answer above. In this case, the victories from A would apply to the next roll, if that next conflict is relevant. And that's all they apply to.

Is it usual that the Kicker get resolved after one session?
I'm pretty sure it is not, but we tend to come to this. Is this (or could it be) counterproductive?

It's not usually the case. The reason a Kicker would be resolved so quickly is a classic green-belt Sorcerer situation: it's so much fun to see a Kicker get resolved, that the group as a whole rushes toward it. The main person in this situation is the GM, because the Kicker should be treated, during preparation, as a deeper and more complex situation than is immediately apparent to the character at the beginning of play. Often, the immediate Kicker ("escape the ninjas") may be dealt with through a roll or two, but that is not the same as dealing with the causes of the Kicker, which, by definition, are not going to go away until they are dealt with.

Part of the process of resolving the Kicker is discovering, as a group, how that Kicker changes the character's life forever. That is not known from the Kicker's original content. It must come about through play itself, and in some ways the GM knows more than the others (he has prepped the Kicker's back-story), but in some ways, he knows less than anyone, because he has zero authority over how the player-character will handle the situation.

One thing that's often hard to explain until a person is as skilled as you are now, is that the experiences of play may extend a Kicker's actual resolution considerably. The Kicker may, for instance, involve being kidnapped (to pick a simple example). Then during the subsequent events, the character may come into conflict with a potential romantic partner. And then, through various decisions during play, the two end up being lovers and partners. Well, that looks as if it resolves the Kicker, but actually, the GM must look at the circumstances which brought them into conflict (say, a demon which lied to both of them), because until those problems are resolved, the Kicker or something of equal consequence is still available to occur from the same root cause. Even more importantly, and more likely, the player(s) may have already decided to deal with the demon in some way, in order to address the problem. (After the first couple of sessions, this player-driven effect is more likely.)

So does that make sense? The kidnapping is long over. But the relationships, information, and new desired conflicts are still in action. Resolving a Kicker is not just getting past an immediate problem: it is grappling with, deciding upon, and acting upon a new kind of crisis for this character.

-----

Now let's talk about Boosts and Punishments. The situation that puzzled you needs to be outlined in very careful detail.

A demon and James are in physical conflict with one another. The demon has Stamina 6, Power and Will of 7, and one of its abilities is Boost Stamina. The primary issue of the question is that it will Boost itself, which raises its Stamina to 13. However, that will last for only one action! The demon's Power will also instantly drop to 1, as long as the Boost lasts.

So the demon would like to Boost itself and then hit James with its huge Stamina score. James is Banishing the demon. Let's say that James has a Will of 5 and a Humanity of 3. Let's also say the demon is Bound by someone else with a Binding strength of 1.

Here's one way in which this situation can flow. This is the way that confused you.

James will Punish the demon. The demon will Boost itself. The demon's action will automatically succeed, but it will roll Power anyway to see when its Boost applies during the round. James will roll a single die (snap-shot reduction of Will). They both roll.

If James gets the high roll, then his Punish is first opposed by the demon's non-Boosted Stamina of 6. Let's say that there are some bonus dice involved, or that James gets lucky, and the demon loses some Power. Then the demon's Boost occurs, but with lower Power than 7, so the total Stamina is less than 13, and the round is over.

If the demon gets the high roll, it is Boosted immediately and now has a huge Stamina, but its Power is now 1. Then James' roll is applied, and the demon rolls its defense of Stamina, 13 dice. This is vastly superior to James in probability, but it counts as a "use" of Boost. The demon is now in some trouble for the next round, because if it wants to stay Boosted, it will become Confused, as if the demon ability had been used upon it.

In the next round, if the demon tries to attack, it will have to match its own Will against the Power of the Boost (7) in order to preserve its attempt to attack; otherwise, it has no action at all! Also, James will attempt his Banish roll. He has 4 dice (Will reduced to 1 for the snapshot, plus 3 Humanity). If the demon managed to avoid being Confused, then it has a decent roll, its Will (7) + Power (reduced to 1) + Binding strength (1), for a total of 9. (Note that it would have 15, without the Boost in action.) But if it were Confused, then it would only be rolling a single die! And no matter what, if it were Confused, then its attack on James is cancelled.

So my advice concerned the possibility that James' player might take the risk of trying the Punish, because it is more likely that the demon will go first, and therefore the benefit of the initial Boost is lost on the defensive roll, and the demon will be subject to the negative effects of continued Boosting, thus spoiling or at least complicating its later attack on him. It's not a guaranteed tactic, but since no tactic is ever guaranteed in Sorcerer, it's not a bad one.

Does that make sense? My point is that Boost, properly applied by the rules, is best for one thing: increasing the chances of a single roll in a simple conflict. Outside of that context, and especially in combat, Boost opens the door to many, many complicated and risky situations for its user and for its target. It is a horrible trap for people who think they can exploit rules.

Best, Ron

[5niper9]

Hi Ron,
thanks a lot. Most of the post makes sense to me and these parts definitely go to my notes:

So the options are A to B to C to D, in a direct line, or C to D, with the outcomes of A and B now firmly in the past.

Part of the process of resolving the Kicker is discovering, as a group, how that Kicker changes the character's life forever.

Nice,
but let's look at the Boost thing, again.
I have no problems with both possibilities in the first round.
So the Demon got first in the first round, was not punished (1 die against 13 dice) and wants to stay Boosted. He wants to attack in the second round and thus rolls his will (7 - 1 for boosting over the limits) against the power of the "confuse" (7). He succeeds.

Second round:
James tries to banish and the Demon wants to attack.
James rolls 4 dice and the demon rolls 12 (13 -1) dice. Correct so far?

What if James has a really nice roll and comes out first?
The demon can abort his attack and "defend" with 8 dice or can roll 1 die to protect against the ritual?

Still correct?

Well, I'll see.
Greetings,
René

[Ron Edwards]

Hi René,

So the Demon got first in the first round, was not punished (1 die against 13 dice) and wants to stay Boosted. He wants to attack in the second round and thus rolls his will (7 - 1 for boosting over the limits) against the power of the "confuse" (7). He succeeds.

My only correction for this part is that the demon would not technically roll against the "confuse" effect during this round. That roll would arrive during the pre-action phase of the second round, when the GM announces that the demon will attack, at the moment when he commits to it.

Second round:
James tries to banish and the Demon wants to attack.
James rolls 4 dice and the demon rolls 12 (13 -1) dice. Correct so far?

I think so. It's a bit tricky without my book, but that looks correct.

What if James has a really nice roll and comes out first?
The demon can abort his attack and "defend" with 8 dice or can roll 1 die to protect against the ritual?

That's exactly right!

As you can see, James would be a lot safer if he had friends helping him with complementary actions - attacks, most likely, to try to deny the demon more dice. If he had two friends who were attacking the demon physically, and if they announced their actions such that the second would gain a bonus from the first, no matter which went first, then the likelihood of getting that demon Banished increases greatly.

Best, Ron