Something I always wanted to do but couldn't find the system for

[Ry]

I always wanted to run a campaign - not just a one-shot - where the players and I could take the roles of deity-like beings and build a campaign world.  Whether it be in a traditional GM-vs-players or everyone's-equal game wouldn't matter, but it would be important for me to be able to lay down some "style rules" in advance.  The 4E announcement got me thinking about the gaming milestones I've met and missed so far, and I thought the Forge might have a suggestion for such a system.

[Vulpinoid]

Sorry, this isn't going to be a really useful suggestion, but it might help point you in the right direction.

In the late 80's there were a number of manufacturers who were producing series of books that were called "Cap-systems" among other names. Because D&D was still heavily protected by TSR in those days, and other companies couldn't produce source material without hefty royalties, these were designed to be additions to any existing roleplaying game. Not surprisingly they tended to be "very compatible" with AD&D, and some of the more prominent games on the market at the time.

I remember that among these games there were some great "cap-systems" for players to create god-like beings, and a few similar products that focused on world generation. Since they were designed to work with "any" system you might find them still relevant to games in today's market.

I played a few of them at the time, and found the experience enjoyable, because it was quite a departure from the usual "Start as a level 1 party member and beat up the underground things" that were prevalent at the time.

Sorry I can't remember any of their names, but I'm just letting you know that there are definitely products around that meet your requirements.

V

[Ry]

Hi V,

Do you know any names of products or somewhere I might find such? 

Also, can you remember anything about the basic approach of such games?  In the past I've created god-games but they ended up being, well "We all sit around creating our own thing and avoid conflicts between them, or only agreed-on conflicts, so we can avoid real conflict between players."

[Vulpinoid]

I'll see what I can do to track some down for you.

V

[Justin Nichol - BFG]

I think the ones you're thinking of Vulpinoid may be the Primal Order series originally released by Wizards of the Coast before the days of 3rd ed and the OGL. Primal Order was a cap-system like Vulpinoid described and gave rules for using a system called Prime in different games. Prime was basically godlike power and divinity that superseded all other forms of power in the game. It gave rules for how it would balance itself, ways to use it in different game systems. It also had plenty of stuff about Gods and developing stories around Divine beings. I had a game-master who used those rules in a home brew, probably the only reason that I at 22 know about them, because I think they're pretty rare.

The only ones I can remember are The Primal Order,  and Knights: Strategies in Motion which I think is about Avatars, and another book named Pawns: ?, but I can't recall the full name of that last one.

[Justin Nichol - BFG]

p.s. this sorts sounds like a game I wanted to create once where each player took the place of a god and sort of like Black White, raised a civilization and had avatars and did battle with other gods, except I wanted it to be far more expansive where you could do more than just fight, you could be a god of the arts and raise your civilization through culture, all to sing your praise. And I wanted it to be playable campaign style, going on as long as each player pleases in installments with new realms that can be explored and cultivated, and would have sort of random challenges to be met by whoever was trying to claim it.

[Vulpinoid]

I think the ones you're thinking of Vulpinoid may be the Primal Order series originally released by Wizards of the Coast before the days of 3rd ed and the OGL. Primal Order was a cap-system like Vulpinoid described and gave rules for using a system called Prime in different games. Prime was basically godlike power and divinity that superseded all other forms of power in the game. It gave rules for how it would balance itself, ways to use it in different game systems. It also had plenty of stuff about Gods and developing stories around Divine beings. I had a game-master who used those rules in a home brew, probably the only reason that I at 22 know about them, because I think they're pretty rare.

The only ones I can remember are The Primal Order,  and Knights: Strategies in Motion which I think is about Avatars, and another book named Pawns: ?, but I can't recall the full name of that last one.

That's the main ones I was thinking of, you're right. There were a few similar products released around the same time.

We've got plenty of good game stores in Sydney, some of which have a decent range of second hand and discontinued product lines. I'm guessing most major urban centres would be the same.

From what I remember of these books, they would be pretty useful to the sort of thing you're considering.

V

[Moreno R.]

I thought about a lot of different systems where you could play a God.. But this is because "playing a god", alone, isn't a very precise definition of what you want. You can play a God in "Nobilis" and "PTA", for example, but the play experience would be very different because the kind of game situations would have very little in common.

What is that you search for in this geme? The experience of playing very powerful characters? A way to build the campaign world all together and not alone? Can you give us an example of a scene you would like very much to play?

As a frame of reference, do you know the two rpgs I used above as an example? What rpgs did you play until now?

P.S.: do you search a game like this as a reference to create your own game for publication (even if simply in a web page), or simply to play it? In the second case this isn't the right sub-forum, you should have posted in "actual play"  (in short: "first thoughts" is for the first thoughts about new, different game system you want to create and publish yourself. If you don't want to create and publish a new game, or if you plan to create it for a publisher instead of publishing it yourself, you are off-topic.  The "actual play" subforum instead is open to discussion about real-game esperience (past or desired) with any game system, old or new, indie or not)

[Ry]

I'm looking for an actual play experience where the players and I create a campaign setting, but I want to do this as a roleplaying game, with the players taking on specific and ongoing roles.  Those roles will evolve - like a god that's growing in power or changing in personality with time - and the evolution of the player-character and the story created from the players' interaction will have ramifications for the resultant setting.  I want that process to fall within some agreed-on style guidelines (no "god of pancakes" in a game where we agree we're trying to emulate the myths of ancient India, for example).  Crucially, I need a game that solves the problem of "We all sit around creating our own thing and avoid conflicts between them, or only agreed-on conflicts, so we can avoid real conflict between players." - because I've had that experience twice and it creates a setting that is frankly boring.

Looks like I should be in AP, which I didn't realize when I started the thread.

[Christian Liberg]

Hey Ryan, this is excactly what i am going for in my gods and gutterfolk game. you can have a look at my ideas in this thread http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=24341.0

Basically i wanted to create two seperate parts of the game, not sure you can use it but, take a look.

[David Artman]

If you toss out the setting whole-sale--or maybe use it as Square One from which to begin reforging the world--then I think Mage: the Ascension would serve fairly well, mechanically, for the kind of "God Game" you want, in particular Dynamic Magic.

Basically, toss out the idea of an awakened Avatar and just go straight to be discorporate Avatars.
Throw twenty dots to everyone, to choose their Spheres (that's enough to DOMINATE two whole Spheres at 10 each).
Look to Rotes for inspiration, but don't waste a lot of time on them: Dynamic Magic is the key.

You can even still use the Paradigm and Paradox, Quiet and Arete and Willpower mechanics--they just represent the force of "primal chaos" or whatever... or of "static law" already engendered by another God which is hostile to other Gods that "break the Paradigm" willy-nilly.

Seriously... just file off the humanity of a normal Mage character (UNLESS it's corporate in the world!!!), open up the door to whole-world Paradigm shaping with MegaSphere abilities, and see how it goes. You can get the old World of Darkness Mage books for a song, these days....

HTH;
David

P.S. For other "world creation" game ideas, look at Burning Empires or Universalis... in fact, you could run a God Game in Universalis right out of the gate, no tweaking necessary (well... other than the inherent tweaking that EVERY game of Universalis entails!).

[Ry]

I may have a chance to play Universalis a few more times in the near future, and with any luck I'll be able to sound it out better.  The first game I played in was a bit of a disaster, at least from my perspective, but hopefully if I can get a better handle on the rules and play with more experienced Universalis players I'll see what I need to see to figure out how to tailor it to the god game.

I'm thinking of polishing my Universalis skills on weekends while running my Wednesday night E6 game, and then using Universalis in combination with / as preparation for a 4E campaign (perhaps one that is out of the gate very different from standard D&D as a result, leveraging off of my d20 customization experiences).