Romance, love, friendship - emotional stuff

[Justin Nichol - BFG]

Well, I have been in some games with really powerful emotions, but generally that doesn't happen too often. As far as romance, from my own personal experience, no matter how liberal or sensitive I am, there's nothing that can make roleplaying romance between me and a fat 40 year old gamer missing teeth not creepy. I know this anecdote isn't helpful, but if part of the question is why does this get overlooked it's probably just because most gamers are male, and when a female plays that is dating someone else it can be difficult to get the two to not have their characters act out their love affair, so most often romance just gets nixed from games as anything but a sort of endgame motivation (trying to protect a loved one).

[Moreno R.]

Well, I have been in some games with really powerful emotions, but generally that doesn't happen too often. As far as romance, from my own personal experience, no matter how liberal or sensitive I am, there's nothing that can make roleplaying romance between me and a fat 40 year old gamer missing teeth not creepy. I know this anecdote isn't helpful, but if part of the question is why does this get overlooked it's probably just because most gamers are male, and when a female plays that is dating someone else it can be difficult to get the two to not have their characters act out their love affair, so most often romance just gets nixed from games as anything but a sort of endgame motivation (trying to protect a loved one).

Justin, why do you assume that this apply to every gaming group? I play with three women at the table, and I know a lot of women who like to play RPGs..  And in this thread are already listed a lot of games that adress emotional content, and they have found a market.

Creating game with a target of all-male groups because "only males will play it anyway" quickly creates a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And, in any case,how this is of any help in answering Osmo's questions? (He isn't even talking only about romantic love in his game, but about friendship and other relationship too)

[Osmo Rantala]

So just to be sure I understand you right. The wizard are trying to get rid of the people the character has strong relationship with, to prevent the character from getting too strong. So if the character fall in love he have to keep it a secret, or he may risk that the one he love will be kill by the wizard.

Something like that. And about the rage/hate question, you are right, it does kind of go around the whole point of the game... Then again, I could well imagine hate/rage to be a powerfull source for manipulating magic, but one that could turn against yourself, so when letting hate to prosper and using it to fuel your Gift, you risk losing all.

What do you think?

Well, I have been in some games with really powerful emotions, but generally that doesn't happen too often. As far as romance, from my own personal experience, no matter how liberal or sensitive I am, there's nothing that can make roleplaying romance between me and a fat 40 year old gamer missing teeth not creepy. I know this anecdote isn't helpful, but if part of the question is why does this get overlooked it's probably just because most gamers are male, and when a female plays that is dating someone else it can be difficult to get the two to not have their characters act out their love affair, so most often romance just gets nixed from games as anything but a sort of endgame motivation (trying to protect a loved one).

I understand what you mean, Emily Care Boss had some great panels about romance in rpgs and this was one of the topics (avoiding the word problem intentionally) discussed, but in creating my games I go for people who aren't afraid of incorporating more complex, possibly harder issues into their games. I guess my point is that anyone who doesn't want to play out romances or what not between their and their fellow gamer's characters are free not to play my games.

And just as an afterpoint, I have never, not once, seen a fat, forty year old gamer missing his/her teeth. (I have seen and played with fat and forty year olds, but that combination tends to be somewhat rare among players here in Finland)

[Anders Larsen]

And about the rage/hate question, you are right, it does kind of go around the whole point of the game... Then again, I could well imagine hate/rage to be a powerfull source for manipulating magic, but one that could turn against yourself, so when letting hate to prosper and using it to fuel your Gift, you risk losing all.

What do you think?

Yes, you could do something like the light site/dark side of the force, where negative emotions can get you power but with terrible consequences. You should be a bit careful about how many aspects you add to a conflict - it can risk losing its intensity - but as long as the aspect work well together I do not think there will be any problem.

I do not have any new suggestions right now, but I have some question you can think about, which, hopefully, can help you with your design:

1) What are the different concepts in the game (love, power, humanity, etc) and how do these concept relate to each other?
2) What important and tough choices do the characters (or players) face in the game?
3) What do you want the characters to do in the game, and what motivates them to do this?
4) When the players after the game say "this was a cool game because (...)", what is it the players will think is cool about the game?


A note on the parallel discussion here. I play in a all male group, and we have had games where strong relationships has been very important. And this is not just friendship, but also romantic relationships - even between two player characters. Of cause we do not play out every single interactions of the relationships, the trick is to find the moment where you go out of character and just tell in general what happens.

I can recommend everyone to take a look at the Sorcerer supplement Sex and Sorcery, which discuss how to handle such thing in a game.

- Anders

[Justin Nichol - BFG]

Well, I have been in some games with really powerful emotions, but generally that doesn't happen too often. As far as romance, from my own personal experience, no matter how liberal or sensitive I am, there's nothing that can make roleplaying romance between me and a fat 40 year old gamer missing teeth not creepy. I know this anecdote isn't helpful, but if part of the question is why does this get overlooked it's probably just because most gamers are male, and when a female plays that is dating someone else it can be difficult to get the two to not have their characters act out their love affair, so most often romance just gets nixed from games as anything but a sort of endgame motivation (trying to protect a loved one).

Justin, why do you assume that this apply to every gaming group? I play with three women at the table, and I know a lot of women who like to play RPGs..  And in this thread are already listed a lot of games that adress emotional content, and they have found a market.

Creating game with a target of all-male groups because "only males will play it anyway" quickly creates a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And, in any case,how this is of any help in answering Osmo's questions? (He isn't even talking only about romantic love in his game, but about friendship and other relationship too)

I'm certainly not convinced it's always the case, but I've been in plenty of game shops bustling with sidegames, and male gamers are far more common. There's certainly nothing wrong with trying to engender some interest in female players, in fact I think it's admirable. I was mainly presenting an anecdote. And relating that romance at least is difficult when you're with close friends. Take it from a womans perspective instead, I know the primary source of driving women away from games I've been around or involved with is that no matter how mature the individual gamers are normally, when a girl gets involved, suddenly she becomes the sexual center of attention, and this isn't just teenagers, we're just talking about 30 and 40 year olds. It's as if everyone simultaneously starts daydreaming of chain mail bikinis I can imagine a woman might not want romance in a game for the same reason I err away from it, it's just too wierd and creepy for a lot of people to roleplay something so intimate out with people who are totally platonic.

Friendship and other types of love are fantastic topics for roleplaying. But I was just pointing out how romance might be difficult. Like I said I was presenting an anecdote, a little levity, it wasn't meant to answer any questions or be an informed sensitive opinion. But if you've ever had a 200 pound man with no shirt on try to play the part of a girl flirting with one of your characters, you might err away from romance in games much the way I do.

[Justin Nichol - BFG]

So just to be sure I understand you right. The wizard are trying to get rid of the people the character has strong relationship with, to prevent the character from getting too strong. So if the character fall in love he have to keep it a secret, or he may risk that the one he love will be kill by the wizard.

Something like that. And about the rage/hate question, you are right, it does kind of go around the whole point of the game... Then again, I could well imagine hate/rage to be a powerfull source for manipulating magic, but one that could turn against yourself, so when letting hate to prosper and using it to fuel your Gift, you risk losing all.

What do you think?

Well, I have been in some games with really powerful emotions, but generally that doesn't happen too often. As far as romance, from my own personal experience, no matter how liberal or sensitive I am, there's nothing that can make roleplaying romance between me and a fat 40 year old gamer missing teeth not creepy. I know this anecdote isn't helpful, but if part of the question is why does this get overlooked it's probably just because most gamers are male, and when a female plays that is dating someone else it can be difficult to get the two to not have their characters act out their love affair, so most often romance just gets nixed from games as anything but a sort of endgame motivation (trying to protect a loved one).

I understand what you mean, Emily Care Boss had some great panels about romance in rpgs and this was one of the topics (avoiding the word problem intentionally) discussed, but in creating my games I go for people who aren't afraid of incorporating more complex, possibly harder issues into their games. I guess my point is that anyone who doesn't want to play out romances or what not between their and their fellow gamer's characters are free not to play my games.

And just as an afterpoint, I have never, not once, seen a fat, forty year old gamer missing his/her teeth. (I have seen and played with fat and forty year olds, but that combination tends to be somewhat rare among players here in Finland)

I have played with such a player and had to roleplay a serious romantic relationship while he was gamemaster and it was just a little creepy, not because he was male but more because he is so utterly non-romantic in my head, but yes the combination is rare. I certainly agree, I'm very interested in these sorts of games, but considering around where I live I find it difficult to find gamers who are willing to do anything more with roleplaying than roll dice and fulfill childhood fantasies, I don't think I'll have anyone to play with. I hope my silly, pointless anecdote didn't muddy the waters. I couldn't help but crack a joke.

[Osmo Rantala]

...I hope my silly, pointless anecdote didn't muddy the waters. I couldn't help but crack a joke.
[/quote]

I'm sure no one took it to heart, I know I didn't, although I must agree with you on the difficulty of finding players who are willing or eager to play the "harder" issues (that is, harder than slaying orcs and the occasional dragon), but there are those, too, one just has to do some work to find them at times.

And thanks Anders, some good questions you presented to me.

[Meguey]

Justin, the things you bring up lightly are also worth thinking about, so thanks.

Osmo, what do you envision as the play group for your game? There are games out there that can deal with heavy emotions (MLWM being prime among them) and one's that can't, just as there are gaming groups of each kind. Are you looking for this to be a game you can crack open and play with strangers at a Con, open game night with the guys at the shop, a long-term group that's got solid trust and communication, or what?

From looking over what you've written, my first thought is that it's even more interesting if you turn it on it's head. What if I'm the wizard with the strong clear Gift for weaving magic, but I need my assistants (channels? foci?) in order to keep my world intact. I *need* these people. How do I keep them? How do I keep their emotional currents running strong for me? I can brow-beat them and live off their anger and resentment, I can abuse them and live off their fear and hate, I can manipulate them and keep them unsteady and live off their anxiety, I can be ingratiating and live off their condescension, I can be honest and kind and live off their devotion. What takes the most work? What gives me the strongest currents of emotion? What will I risk to keep that emotion flowing? How far will I go out of my own emotional well-being in the quest for magic? How far will I let it warp me?

[TonyLB]

A few practical suggestions.

First, trying to tackle the whole range of human emotion ... that's daunting, especially for a first crack at designing to emotion.  It will probably be easier if you pick one fairly specific pattern of human relationships, and concentrate on that.  Breaking the Ice, for instance, plays just two people on their first three dates, trying to figure out whether they're attracted and compatible.  It's a fairly ritualized way that people interact (though always rife with details that make one relationship world different from another) and that formula makes it easier to design.

Second, one way to get a lot of nuance into the way that players get rewards is to have them awarded by other players.  For instance, Primetime Adventures rewards people for being entertaining.  This would be hard (i.e. impossible) to do if the game system had to enumerate the ways in which players are objectively entertaining.  But, instead, PTA just says "When one of the other players is entertained by something you did, they can award you Fan Mail."  There are tricks to making that balance out, but it's a powerful technique.  If the actions players taken when they are (for instance) romantically attracted to your character are consistent then you can attach a reward to that, for the player they're attracted to.  Then you have a game which rewards people for being alluring ... again, something that would be hard to quantify objectively.