How do I make a body jump spell?

[Jaif]

I would suggest the following:

1) No two souls may inhabit the same body.  Your imprison spell will not work: you must first remove the soul from the new body before you can imprison your spirit in there.  That soulless body will be a vegetable and need constant attention that you probably can't provide.  If you want, cast a sustaining spell of some kind on it.

2) Unless you bind that old soul somewhere, it's going to be plenty angry.  Take disadvantage: haunted if you remove a soul from a body (no matter if you subsequently move into it, or not).

3) During a portion of the spell, your soul is in neither body.  You must therefore use magical vision to continue the procedure.

4) Control is used to help you embed yourself correctly into the new body.

5) The months aged are split between both bodies in case of success (if you don't make it to the new body, then your old body takes the entire hit.)

6) Fumble = death.  I would take a very hard line on this one if a PC used this spell, though I guess a spent luck point could turn a fumble into failure.

7) You get the attributes & gifts/flaws of the new body, skills & proficiencies of the old.  "Gifted" goes with the soul.

8) While there is no resistance (you've already removed the soul from the new body and encountered that), you need to make an MA/CTN roll.  Add your conquer vagary (by definition, 3) to the number of successes you received, and compare to the CTN of the spell.  Every point less raises all your skills by 1 and lowers a single proficiency/vagary by 1.  So, if you miss by 2 points, you add 2 to all skills, and subtract 2 points from any of your vagaries.  A fumble on the MA roll is very nasty; hell, even failure is pretty bad.

9) Again with the hard line: no faith, drive, passion, or conscience can be used.  No matter how the player spins it, this is ultimately a selfish act.

10) Optional: must use summon: magic to sustain either/both bodies while you're in transit.  This will age the body (ies) automatically.

Summary of my major balancing stuff:

- disadvantage: haunted to account for the old spirit.
- MA/CTN roll (step 8) to avoid degredation of skills/proficiencies.

Last, I'll repeat and add: I'd take a very hard line with this spell.  The player is trying to avoid the only attempt to balance sorcerers.

-Jeff

P.S. Regarding #9; I know that you can make scenarios where the drives *apply*, but I would state that selfishness is always the overwhelming drive in this case.

P.P.S. Aside - I would allow SAs when picking the body.  If you hate your target, it's quite easy to kick his soul out of his body. :-)

[Jaif]

Ack, just thought of two more things.

1) You may want to keep the MA, Wit, and WP of the old body around (the mind).  Social probably as well, but I'd suggest using the Per of the new body.

2) You may want to do a reverse duration for additional recovery time.  Basically, something like CTN - # of casting successes in minutes (1 minute minimum) of helplessness when you're in the new body.

[Ace]

Okay, here's how I would do it..

SNIPS NEAT CONTENT

<m> God forbid my players ever find this forum...

Thats how I am going to do it too. Great work!

[Lyrax]

Don't forget: If the person you are switching with is Gifted, he can resist with his Art and any SP dice he devotes to this.  And you can bet he will resist it with everything he's got.  I know, Conquer 3 can be used, but that needs to be resisted as well.

[Ben]

I've seen some very good points from just about every body (DaR and Jaif stand out to me) but so far every spell I've seen will at best leave the sorcerer a drooling vegetable upon sucsess. Your brain isn't attached to your soul. If you want all the knowledge and memories of your former body you'll have to Vision into your own brain to see how it's set up and then Vision/Scuplture your victim's brain after first doing a Conquer on it so nothing gets tangeled up or any small residual traces don't leak back in.

Also if you want to look like you're old self you'll have to Scuplture all the cells in the new body, preferabliy before you switch because I'd bet that would hurt like hell. This would also be neccesary for the sorcerer to use all his skills at peak proficency. If not, even with the mind alteration, the physical refelexs and evenn just mussle devlopment of the different body would greatly hinder perscition for quite sometime. However unless you tweak the DNA, all the cells in the body will be replicating the old DNA and pretty soon you'll end up in the old body which may also be a pretty unpleasant experience.

And then there's the question of weather or not sorcery is genetic or spiritual or both. My call is that it's spiritual (or perhaps both). If genetic or both, the body must be prepared in the way above if the wizard wants to keep his magic. Another option just occured to me. The possibility stands that it may be neither spiritual or genetic. It may just be a fluke. The magic may soley belong to the body of the caster, being imbued with some mystic particle or beimg born at the focal of some cosmic convergence or some other sillness. If this be the case, then that would necesitate the need for a "gifted" victim. Woe unto them. (HEY JAKE, can we get some sort of ruleing here. Knowing you but not the answer, you'll probablly say "at the seneschal's discretion", so I preemtivly asking, if that be the answer, for an 'offical' recomendation or preference for all of us to universally colaberate on if we feel so inclined.)

I'm fairly certain that I've forgot, left out or simply haven't thought of several more aspects, problems and nuances of this but would rather not make the endever to get more detailed until I've heard from Jake on it. (that's preasure you're feelin' BOY) But even without a details of the difficultlty on excecuting such a feat, I'd venture to say that the reason more sorcerers don't attempt such more often is that the obsene logisticts are enough to discurage all but the firmly resolved. That and a conscience or general lack of evilness. Anyway...

[J B Bell]

I don't own tRoS, though I damned well intend to when it releases in August.  (Know of any copies that made it to Canada, Jake?)  But all the spell threads I've seen seem to presuppose something that is, to me, rather shocking.

Namely, an understanding of modern physics, even if gained by magical means.  Honestly, I regard this as rather a flaw.  I mean, in the same thread we're talking about souls--something science has pretty well no support for--and brain structure.

I don't think one can really muck about on this level and make any kind of sense without a relatively solid metaphysics, and I gather that tRoS is (sensibly, IMO) rather agnostic about what is "really real" on the magical level.  Seems to me if you don't have this nailed down in the way e.g. Sorcerer needs to have demons & humanity nailed down (not necessarily in a super-detailed way, but you can't play properly without discussion of it), then spell design is going to be unnecessarily contentious.

Comments?  Am I talking out my ass here?  Does no one else anticipate problems with magical brain surgery and souls in the same notional space?

--JB

[Ben]

I don't own tRoS, though I damned well intend to when it releases in August.

Good, you'll love it.

(Know of any copies that made it to Canada, Jake?)

I do know a few got up that way, but have no specifics, Jake does though, Jake?

But all the spell threads I've seen seem to presuppose something that is, to me, rather shocking.
Namely, an understanding of modern physics, even if gained by magical means.  Honestly, I regard this as rather a flaw.  I mean, in the same thread we're talking about souls--something science has pretty well no support for--and brain structure.
I don't think one can really muck about on this level and make any kind of sense without a relatively solid metaphysics, and I gather that tRoS is (sensibly, IMO) rather agnostic about what is "really real" on the magical level.  Seems to me if you don't have this nailed down in the way e.g. Sorcerer needs to have demons & humanity nailed down (not necessarily in a super-detailed way, but you can't play properly without discussion of it), then spell design is going to be unnecessarily contentious.

Wow, thats some inquiry, and I must say one that didn't see coming.
Your assumtion on TRoS's stance on what is "really real" is pretty right on(as far as I know) and after reviewing things your concern is completely justified. Since you don't have the book, I'll try to explane things with as little game mechanics as possible. Before I start, you should note that in TRoS, 'reality is used to mitagate the application of magic, though not its effect'. Partially for the nifftyness of it and partially to gain a different feel from the one you get from those 'dungeon' games. Anyway, here I go...
The use of magic grants a sorcerer the ability to alter his perception to 'see' what is beyond his normal vision. This power extends from looking 'inward' into the micro to loking outward at the macro(such as viewing far away). Unto this, the sorcerer's sight does not actually change, rather it is just his perception. So a sorcerer veiw far away may receive the information as flashing of images(like remote veiwing) or experience it as if he's there watching or occur simply as a knowing of said happens. A sorcerer viewing things in the micro such as DNA may find himself in a long tubular room looking at a seris of of large discs standing in a row spanning down the hallway; each one partially clear with an embedded picture(as though a diagram or blue print and cords running from different parts of the picture to parts of the other pictures: or may see it as a house were the materials, floorplan, contents of the room, etc... all allude to corrisponeding elements or aspects of the person or creature or whatever in question. It should not be assumed that a sorcerers understanding of such things will be the same as our modern understanding, but as sorcerers can perceive such things, even though it may be greatly contribed, it is only logical that they could reach some kind of understanding from the interpritation of the perceived information. So even though sorcerers have a kind of 'knowledge' of such things, each sorcerers info may be different from another and disscussing such things would get very hairy and left field if we didn't use the modern speak to jive about it.
It occurs to me though, just from responding to this post, that not everyone has the same take on the subject as me. eh... if you didn't but now do, keep quite about it. :) If you don't share it, I'll appreciate any effort on your part not to make me look like too big an ass when posting ;)

Comments?  Am I talking out my ass here?

not nearly as much as me :p - no, it was all good stuff.

Does no one else anticipate problems with magical brain surgery and souls in the same notional space?
--JB

Of course we anticipate problems, thats why we're discussing it! :D

[Mokkurkalfe]

I was about to say the same thing as J B Bell. A sorcerer probably doesn't think so much about science as we do, and more importantly, not as much as his player do.
BTW, a seneshal will be in real trouble if a player knows more about micro physics and stuff than he.

Anyway, assuming that the sorcerer knows about this stuff, there are other ways to live longer, apart from moving your soul to another body.

1) Imprison your soul in your own body. The body will not die unless you banish the soul. Although when the body "dies" out of age, or get its head chopped of, the soul wants to escape to the afterlife. But it can't. It's like a bumblebee trying to get out of a glass turned upside-down. The result is a rotting body that still lives, capable of immense sorcery and with a tortured soul, probably making it mad(both mad as in angry as well as in crazy). In other words, a lich!
Of course, the avarage sorcerer doesn't know that this is the result.

2) Things that move at the speed of light don't age. Using Vision and Movement the sorcerer makes his molecules move back and forth between the molecules of the world around him at the speed of light. Of course they just move an extremely small distance, then going the other way, every atom in perfect harmony.
Of course, this assumes that the sorcerer know about these things.

P.S: This one probably has to be made constant.

[Jaif]

2) Things that move at the speed of light don't age. Using Vision and Movement the sorcerer makes his molecules move back and forth between the molecules of the world around him at the speed of light. Of course they just move an extremely small distance, then going the other way, every atom in perfect harmony.
Of course, this assumes that the sorcerer know about these things.

It's been a very long time since my relativity 101 (<g>), but I don't believe this is quite the right way to look at it.

1) Mass can't be accelerated to the speed of light.  You can get close, closer, and really really damn closer and closer, but you can never get there.

2) It's all relative.  A person moving at near-light speed sees the world as changing remarkably fast.  The world sees him as changing not at all.  It's not that you don't age, it's that in the time you age 5 years, the world ages 15.  You'll be unable to interact with the world around you. It's like you're in stasis.

3) "Make his molecules..."  We're talking about some astronomically high number of parts here.  If there are billions of cells in the body, and each is composed of millions/billions/trillions or even higher order numbers of molecules, there's just too much to control and coordinate.

4) Pretend you can coordinate 1*10^20 or more things at a time (that's a lot of zeros), you kill yourself unless they all move the same place at the same time.  You can't have molecule A of the cell wall move left, while the rest of the cell wall moves right.  What this means is that you're just constantly moving the body around, not the individual molecules.

Hope this helps, but it's not the effect you're looking for.

-Jeff

[Lance D. Allen]

Mokkurkalfe,

The first suggestion, (the lich one) I love. I would, and just might, use it.

The second, (the one with the molecules and the speed of light) Hells no would I ever allow that to happen in my games. Ever.

I apply GAMEMASTER HACK! NO, JUST NO! (This is a reference to jokes about players and GMs throwing Rock-Paper-Scissors to determine a point, at which point the GM would throw out the "Gamemaster Hack", shown by slapping the palm of the hand with the edge of the other hand, which beat rock, paper and scissors.)

Cheating death isn't something that should be allowed. Stealing another body isn't cheating death... It still gets it's "pound of flesh" in the form of the displaced soul whose body you stole. Keeping your body from aging..

No, just no.

[Mokkurkalfe]

2) Things that move at the speed of light don't age. Using Vision and Movement the sorcerer makes his molecules move back and forth between the molecules of the world around him at the speed of light. Of course they just move an extremely small distance, then going the other way, every atom in perfect harmony.
Of course, this assumes that the sorcerer know about these things.

It's been a very long time since my relativity 101 (<g>), but I don't believe this is quite the right way to look at it.

1) Mass can't be accelerated to the speed of light.  You can get close, closer, and really really damn closer and closer, but you can never get there.

2) It's all relative.  A person moving at near-light speed sees the world as changing remarkably fast.  The world sees him as changing not at all.  It's not that you don't age, it's that in the time you age 5 years, the world ages 15.  You'll be unable to interact with the world around you. It's like you're in stasis.

3) "Make his molecules..."  We're talking about some astronomically high number of parts here.  If there are billions of cells in the body, and each is composed of millions/billions/trillions or even higher order numbers of molecules, there's just too much to control and coordinate.

4) Pretend you can coordinate 1*10^20 or more things at a time (that's a lot of zeros), you kill yourself unless they all move the same place at the same time.  You can't have molecule A of the cell wall move left, while the rest of the cell wall moves right.  What this means is that you're just constantly moving the body around, not the individual molecules.

Hope this helps, but it's not the effect you're looking for.

-Jeff

1) I think 99,99% of the speed of light will do just fine.

3 & 4) If you can FOLD your body, disintegrate it and build new bodyparts, then I think you can make them all move the exact same pattern(i.e. they stand still relatively to eachother).

2) Ack! You got me on that one.
I admit it probably wouldn't work and it was more of an afterthought from my side. I liked the other one better anyhow.


Oy!!! I thought up a new way! Using scuplture, vision and perhaps something else, ye might mix up yer genes enough to make you immortal. The body has an "improgrammed" life cycle. Couldn't you just take away the part that makes you old? Correct me if I´m wrong somewhere here.

[Lance D. Allen]

I really, really think it's a mistake to attempt to apply more than just the most basic of physics to a fantasy setting.. Sure it allows for some really cool stuff.. But it loses the feel of the fantasy setting. I mean, who can really imagine the sorcerers out of Conan novels studying how to split atoms, or rearange molecules? Sure, I suppose it's possible that they could.. But it's damnably boring to me.

Ripping someones soul from their body and switching it with the soul of a serpent, so that the man tries to slither, and the serpent tries to stand so it can walk away.. That's Conan style fantasy. Demons trapped in a cave protecting a pirate's horde.. Now that gets the blood flowing. Deep dungeons (no, REAL dungeons) filled with all sorts of horrors, and reminiscent of Poe's "The Pit and the Pendulum"... now THAT's interesting.

(Note, all three examples taken from "Conan the Usurper", written by Robert Howard and edited by L. Sprague DeCamp.. So many awesome ideas for TRoS came out of that book.)

I suppose that if you really want to mix it up with physics and Sorcery, that's your choice, and it's your right to talk about it on these boards. I, however... Do not.

[Bob Richter]

I really, really think it's a mistake to attempt to apply more than just the most basic of physics to a fantasy setting.. Sure it allows for some really cool stuff.. But it loses the feel of the fantasy setting. I mean, who can really imagine the sorcerers out of Conan novels studying how to split atoms, or rearange molecules? Sure, I suppose it's possible that they could.. But it's damnably boring to me.

Ripping someones soul from their body and switching it with the soul of a serpent, so that the man tries to slither, and the serpent tries to stand so it can walk away.. That's Conan style fantasy. Demons trapped in a cave protecting a pirate's horde.. Now that gets the blood flowing. Deep dungeons (no, REAL dungeons) filled with all sorts of horrors, and reminiscent of Poe's "The Pit and the Pendulum"... now THAT's interesting.

(Note, all three examples taken from "Conan the Usurper", written by Robert Howard and edited by L. Sprague DeCamp.. So many awesome ideas for TRoS came out of that book.)

I suppose that if you really want to mix it up with physics and Sorcery, that's your choice, and it's your right to talk about it on these boards. I, however... Do not.

The problem, of course, being that our Sorcery has a single VERY potent physical vagary -- Movement 3.

It can move objects up to the speed of light instantaneously. That has a potential to be incredibly destructive, with the result that potentially more interesting ways to be destructive may get tossed aside. Quite frankly, without that Master Movement vagary, most discussions of advanced physics would probably go away.

A note on the FOLD spell -- am I the only one who's noticed that the Sorceror simpy wouldn't arrive?

[Ben]

The body has an "improgrammed" life cycle. Couldn't you just take away the part that makes you old?  Correct me if I´m wrong somewhere here.

Ah, you're refering to all that "junk" DNA.
Well, you may or maynot be right, it certainly is one of the more popular theories. I sited another theory in a post on the "jedi power battles or whatever thread" After mapping all the genes you think they'd have at least bothered to confirm or deny a few of these theories. oh well

But if your theory is right, it should prove pretty easy to become ageless, after a character actually figures it out. Of course, not haveing it may prove detrimental to living or have dire consequeses when casting.

. Quite frankly, without that Master Movement vagary, most discussions of advanced physics would probably go away.

I not so sure I agree. Most talk of physics comes from the ablity to view atomic particels with mastery of Vision. Although m-Movement does pose a few theoretical questions.

[Jake Norwood]

[quote = Ben]HEY JAKE, can we get some sort of ruleing here. Knowing you but not the answer, you'll probablly say "at the seneschal's discretion", so I preemtivly asking, if that be the answer, for an 'offical' recomendation or preference for all of us to universally colaberate on if we feel so inclined.) [/quote]

Um, I think the man you need to talk to is Rick. I just have opinions and interpretations.

Hey Rick!

Jake