Ygg magic again

[Christoffer Lernö]

I know you must be bored reading about Ygg. Sorry 'bout that. I'm just trying to make something out of it, ok? I mean there I was walking nicely along by myself and then I turned and checked out the Forge booth at the side of the road and now my game isn't the same and I have plenty of problems. It might be (I like to think so) a lot better for it, but it's not as simple as before. So that's why I keep pestering you.

As you know I put the stuff up in blog format
http://ygg.blogspot.com/. But if you read it, do keep in mind that all I've written on Ygg is there on that page. I'll edit the contents, not add new entries. Like Laurel who kindly offered some comments but asked me what the witchpeople was, something which already was detailed in the "On the Subject of Setting" entry. What I'm saying is simply that there's a lot of stuff there, don't just check out the first entries. :)

Anyway, to the heart of the matter. The magic system. I've been discussing this before, I know I know I know.

But I just can't get to a solution which totally satisfies me. If you check the page you have a few example spells. Not all of them are fleshed out, but hopefully you see where I'm heading. I don't want any filler spells. All of them are supposed to look and feel "wow cool" (more or less anyway).

I know I already told you that elsewhere.

But anyway, how do I keep that feeling? People have suggested different things, such as spell construction kits from effects (Like, for example, Outlaws of the Watermargin has). You know "gives x damage", and then the players get to figure out how it looks. This, to me is not unlike the Champion approach. Which, in a way, is fine.

Now other ways could be ad-lib:ing spells, other spell construction variants or extending the effects of existing spells.

All of those solutions have one big big problem in my eyes:

"If people are so bloody creative, why does practically every fantasy rpg have thoroughly one dimensional effects?"

It was one thing if AD&D was the only game with "Light"* but that type of spell exists everywhere. So how can I really "trust" the players to understand the kind of magic they're supposed to create for the game? This magic after all, creates a lot of the colour for the game. Every spell I add is actually a tool for the GM to borrow for effects. BUT, my help has to end somewhere.

Now the concession idea is interesting, but eventually fails too (basically it's like adding limitiations in the Champions sense, but with the additional requirement that these also be visual and have impact on the situation for good but usually for worse).

Why?

Because the secondary effects I'm looking for could equally well be positive as negative. Take the death lantern example since it's comparison with "Light"* is so clear.

"Death lanterns are actually made out of these ghostly looking fire demons that circle around the mage. If they happen to touch anything they immediately disappear in a burst of light. However, they will usually not move anything on their own. If someone would run through the circle towards the mage, there be a real burst of fire, but not enough to burn the person unless they are naked humans. When one of these fire demons is destroyed (they actually die) they don't make more of a burn than say a cigarette would. Creative players might be able to figure out that you can actually use this spell to light candles and the like, or if you spray someone with oil and have them run though that circle it's gonna be pretty messy... "

Now obviously the death lanterns have some neat secondary effects as they can burn things. The bad stuff is that something could easily physically destroy all those small demons. So it's vulnerable. Also it can't be disguised. You just have these demons and you can't pretend it's a torch or anything.

Anyway, as you see drawbacks and advantages are drawn from the description rather than the other way around.

When I thought up the Death Lanterns, I just thought of a nice scene with these malformed eternally changing demonic shapes which dance around the magician. Now what would happen if they hit something? Well, burning up seemed like a cool idea. As if they were made out of anti-matter or something. But they shouldn't dance into something on their own, so I decided they would avoid non-moving things. Well, there you have them.

Basically my idea is: think up an effect, think up a cool way for it to look, decide on a reasonable "behaviour" of the spell.

I think it's straightforward, but if it was straightforward we wouldn't have spells cloned from AD&D. No matter how impressively unique the spell system, I still see AD&D stamped on every (damn) spell.

AD&D spell philosophy seems to be:
1. A think up an effect
2. Figure out how we can isolate this effect from any secondary effects

So for some reason the AD&D light spell totally fails to emit any heat whatsoever. It's totally unreasonable (Let's say a wizard wants to make a light spell, why spend a lot of time making sure it only emits visible light, when a more flexible one which also emitted heat could be made much easier? As usual there is little to motivate those decisions other than a vague handwaving at "game balance" - which is an illusion anyway).

Still practically everyone follows this pattern.

Now then, my problem is to create a "do it yourself" spellkit which actually replicate my way of spell creation rather than the AD&D way.

The "effect" construction kit seems to easily fall into the AD&D.

Because if my 3D6 damage spell shoots lightning arcs from my fingers towards the opponent, or if simply a lightning comes down from above and smites him the advantage is different. And in the standard effect construction kits this advantage would be considered an effect too. So the more details, the more you have to work on it. Here you kind of plaster on secondary visual and other effects onto a primary effect.
Again this is nothing more than AD&D with make-up.

I want secondary effects derived from the primary effect. And the primary effect should not be constructed in a way to make it neatly isolated, but constructed for maximum secondary effects.

The concessions idea falls into the same trap as the effect contruction kit. Again you state an objective and decorate it with secondary effects for no other reason than meta-game (is that the correct way to use the term?)advantages.

The secondary effects are still not derived from first principles.

I was thinking of seeing the base spells as a kind of "learning kit" for magicians which then could be expanded on. For example the mage learning the Death Lights might use it to summon fire demons for other purposes, or simply learn how to command the dancing fire demons to move around in a room on it's own and stuff.

Although appealing at first, it seemed to cumbersome to put into practice at second glance, and I think I would have too many basic spells anyway.

So here I am and I still don't have any better idea than making spell lists.

HELP!


/Christoffer


*Light: This spell creates a luminous glow, equal to torchlight, within a fixed radius of the spell's center. Objects in darkness beyond this sphere can be seen, at best, as vague and shadowy shapes. The spell is centered on a point selected by the caster, and he must have a line of sight and unobstructed path for the spell when it is cast. Light can spring from air, rock, metal, wood, or almost any similar substance.
The effect is immobile unless it is specifically centered on a moveable object or mobile creature. If this spell is cast upon a creature, the applicable magic resistance and saving throw rolls must be made. Successful resistance negates the spell, while a successful saving throw indicates that the spell is centered immediately behind the creature, rather than upon the creature itself. Light taken into an area of magical darkness does not function, but if cast directly against magical darkness negates it (but only for the duration of the light spell, if the darkness effect is continual).
Light centered on the visual organs of a creature blinds it, reducing its attack rolls and saving throws by 4 and worsening its Armor Class by 4. The caster can end the spell at any time by uttering a single word.

[Lance D. Allen]

Honestly, I think you're gonna be stuck with just creating the spells for yourself, man. I don't think there's a way to force players to create interesting spells, or if there are, I can't think of any, and neither, I take it, can you, from the multiple posts on this topic.

I think the Death Lantern spell is really cool, and I'd like to see it in effect, but honestly.. your average player isn't going to think up things like this. Write up a spell list, and be done with it, I say. If you're determined to make it possible for GMs and Players to make up their own spells, tack on a spell-design section.

Now that I've said that, I will contradict myself by making a suggestion. Hold on real quick, and let me go grab my Sorcerer book...

Okay, I'm back. That didn't take too long, now did it? Ahem, now for the suggestion.. create some generic spell effects, or have a way that generic spell effects can be created, complete with basic effect, taint, etc. Then allow the spells to be customized for some advantage.. Secondary effects, cool descriptives, and a cool name for the spell... all of these give bonuses. Then allow for penalties.. Lame descriptors obviously half-assed in an attempt to get bonuses, "secondary" effects which, in reality, only serve to make the spell more powerful, or a generic boring name.. All of these give penalties.

Example: The notoriously generic "Fireball"

Visual representation:
-"It's got my hands in it, like in Street Fighter II" serious penalty for
lameness.
-"It's actually a whip of flame" no bonus or penalty.. It's generic, but not lame.
-"It's a laughing demon's head carved in flame" small bonus; neat, but unoriginal.
-"as the demonic visage covers my face, it's rage overflows, sending spikes of flame spurting through the ground, from where I stand to my target stands" larger bonus; original, described in a picturesque manner.

Secondary effects:
-"It sets stuff on fire when it hits" serious penalty; not only is the boy a master of the obvious, but he's probably read the D&D rulebook, too!
-"It leaves thin, burning scores on the target, as though struck by a red-hot whip, which hurt immensely and cause pain penalties" No penalty or bonus; Again, not lame, but not particularly creative.
-"It's laughter can cause fear in those who observe it, as it shows the true hellishness that is demonic magic" small bonus; again, the fear effect is unoriginal, but it's still kinda cool.
-"Causes secondary damage to the floor and any structures intervening, illustrating how rage is uncontrolled and destructive." moderate to large bonus; it attempts to be original and not minimax the effects in the casters favor, as well as using a telling point.

Name:
-"Um.. Flaming hands of fiery death?" Serious penalty; need I explain?
-"Flametongue" no penalty or bonus; again, unoriginal, but not lame.
-"Burning Madness" small bonus; kinda neat, but nothing special.
-"Abyssal Fury" moderate to large bonus; it's interesting, not directly descriptive, but it makes sense when paired with the effects and visual representation.

Now, this is all very possibly "D&D with makeup", but it's at least a way to encourage the players to get creative with the makeup.. or even add wigs and costume, for that matter. But the fact is, you want interesting spells, and this is one way to get them to be interesting. The only other way that I see is to just make them up for yourself, and allow the GMs to make them up for their groups, hoping that they'll follow your desires to make them "interesting". Fact is, though.. If they're not up for that kind of thing, they'll ignore it, no matter what you want. They could use your Death Lanterns, and only worry about describing them if the description somehow benefits them... and that's their right to play that way, if they want to. The only thing you can really do, as a designer (unless you've got Style Nazi Stormtroopers at your beck-and-call to go beat up misbehaving gamers) is to make the game mechanics encourage creativity in spells, and punish "D&D-clone" spells.

That's my suggestion, stolen in part from Sorcerer. Take it or leave it.

[Bailywolf]

OK, here is my take (and somethig of a wish-list for a darkish fantasy game).


1)  No god damn spell lists!    I hate these things.  I'm sick to death of these things.  D&D clone games advertise things on their back covers like they are some kind of feature..."Over 500 spells!  Huge spell lists for every class!"  Yech.

2)  Powerful Magic  Magic has to be WORTH IT.  If magic is dangerous, self destructive, difficult, hard to learn, or costly then it has to be in some way better than doing it the mundane way.  If I morgage off a piece of my soul to be able to slay with a glance, then damnit I had better be able to kill like a mofo...better than any thug with a sword.  If it is easier to perform a task using mundane skills, then why would anyone ever learn magic and risk it all?  Ygg magic seems dangerous and gnarly...it had better have a corresponding kiskass level of utility.  Don't try and ballance magic against mundane skills.

3) Avoid the Stereotypes.  The stereotype  fantasy magic user is the skinny guy with no fighting skills... screw that.  Like the above sugegstion, make magic POWERFUL and the people who weild it larger than life.

4) Make magic solid.  This one is a bit vague... make the units into which you divide your magic system solid chunks of power a player can really grab hold of... many different methods can yield the same final result...why reinvent the wheel every time a mage wants to attack with magic?  The same basic rules can apply to everything...only thr FX will vary.

5) Allow Player Created Magical Flavor.  You define how magic works in your world...but let your players define how magic works for their characters.  Reward creative- and more importiant character supporting and consistent- uses of magic.  Feng Shui rules any borning use of magic gets seriously penalized!  Allow players to build up their own spell lists through play, getting better with a list of mastered spells they create themselves.




>>side note  I love the very physical ways you suggest for controling the demonic taint of magic.  What about transfering taint to others...creating twisted mutant servitores who contain your own corrupted energies...your own personal Igor to shamble about...but protect them, for if they die your tain returns...  yaryar<<


I'll offer some mechanic suggestinos when I have a better idea how Ygg works in genral

later!

[Valamir]

The concessions idea falls into the same trap as the effect contruction kit. Again you state an objective and decorate it with secondary effects for no other reason than meta-game (is that the correct way to use the term?)advantages.

Well, I know we've discussed this before by PM, but I'm going to bring it up again, because it seems to answer alot of what you're trying to do.

The simplest way to get the effects you want without having a huge spell list or a lot of fiddly rules, IMO would be something like this.

1) Start with your standard spell or spell theme as you mentioned.
2) Assign that a very high difficulty TN
3) Don't have missing the difficulty be failure to cast the spell, have it be failure to cast the spell...right now.  Then ala Soveriegn Stone, allow the caster to continue to roll and add each round, until he accumulates a high enough number to beat the TN (this then essentially is how casting time is determined).
4) Allow the player to select Special Effects.  To get them started and demonstrate the feel that you're going for have a half dozen or so possibilities listed with each of your standard spells or themes, ala Brave New World.
5) Each Special Effect reduces the difficulty making the spell easier to cast.  The GM can assign the level of reduction -0 to -3 depending on how interesting, flavor consistant, non power gamey, whatever the effect is.  Or even an increase to the TN for effects that are more primary in nature.
            The idea here is that players are motivated to create these effects to reduce the difficulty of the spell which will reduce the time to cast (and potentially Taint as well).  The GM gets to judge whether the effects are lame or not...which is then group specific.  Some GM's might see "its sets stuff on fire" like Wolfen does...others might say "cool".   Either way, both groups are happy.
6) The GM of course has final say over what is a special effect that reduces difficulty and what is a primary effect that increases it.  For instance, death lanterns that set things on fire but then disperse could be a reasonable special effect.  A death lantern that instantly incinerates anything it touches...is not.

The way I see it...this covers everything you've verbalized.

You have some standard spells with some standard effects to set the tone of what you want.  You have a simple mechanic without alot of fiddly bits which is easy for the GM to run and maintain illusion with.  You have the ability for the players to invent spell effects which is not so much giving them directoral power for narrative reasons, but more a way to pick their brains for creative input, and get them to buy into the flavor factor of the game world.  And finally you avoid haveing to create a detailed spell list to cover everything.

Other than that, I'm afraid that I at least is am at the end of list of helpful suggestions.  I can't think of anything better than this one.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Christoffer,

What people are describing is the component-based model of role-playing magic. You have generic components to choose from, you get to combine them in any way, and special effects for the components or (significantly) for the way they happen to interact in a given case are up to you.

The first game to do this, I think, was Champions, and that system was adapted into fantasy/magic in Fantasy Hero. Ars Magica did it as well in its later editions (not in the first edition at all), and the most recent examples are Sorcerer, for demon abilities, and The Riddle of Steel, for sorcery/spells. Some of the 1990s fantasy heartbreakers play with this method as well, like Hahlmabrea.

I like this approach a lot, but it suffers badly from the Faster Better Cheaper issue, so it needs to be very carefully designed per game - and it is 100% crucial to consider what magic is "about," rather than simply thinking of it as a tactic, energy-source, or engineering problem.

Best,
Ron

[Walt Freitag]

Interesting ideas so far for dressing up the old component magic concept. Let me suggest a different approach: dressing up the old "schools" concept. You know, the one where your character is a "fire" mage and all (or relatively more) of your spells have to do with fire.

Yeah, I know, bo-ring! But let's do two things:

1. Make a mage's "type of effect" requirement more abstract and colorful than just a simple theme like "fire" or "necromancy." For example:

-- All your spells must cause (someone other than yourself) intense and lasting pain.
-- All your spells must cause the death of a living creature with eyes.
-- All your spells must have a face that laughs
-- All your spells must be powered by sin and guilt

These effects must be a result of the effect of the spell itself, not just part of the casting of the spell. It can (and usually will) be a side effect of the main effect, but it has to be tied to that effect. To satisfy the "death of a living creature" you can't just strangle a kitten and then cast a lightning bolt. The death of the creature must be tied directly the effect. For example, the creature's eyes must meet yours so that the lightning bolt runs between its eyes and yours, destroying the creature and affecting everything else in between.

2. Don't allow exceptions. All of a mage's spells must fit that mage's requrement.

The result is that it takes creativity to invent spell effects that do what you want and fit the characteristic. Imagine a lightning bolt spell designed for each of the examples. "Intense pain" is probably easiest, but damage alone doesn't meet the requirement. The effect should do something like hold the target in bands of lightning and then scourge the target with lightning whips, leaving painful scars. Downside is that armor will be a more effective defense, and there's the possibility that the target could escape the bonds before the whips inflict their full damage. "Death of a Living Creature" has already been described. Downside is that you'll spend a lot of time training birds, and the creatures can be intercepted before the conditions for the spell take place. "A face that laughs..." sounds like an animate ball lightning, that pauses to laugh at its victim before striking. Downside is that this gives warning, so the ball lightning can sometimes be dodged, or dispelled while it's laughing. "Powered by sin and guilt" sounds like it requires the caster to call the lightning down upon the target for a specific sin the victim is guilty of, which the caster must know.

Now imagine a healing spell, a darkness spell, and a charm spell designed for each of the same four example requirements. I don't know about you, but I find this very fun and very much a stimulus for creative color.

Not surprisingly, the type of requirement that seems to work the best, as I've been thinking up examples, are the ones that directly or indirectly involve emotions. Things without emotional implications, like "must involve the color yellow" or "must emanate from a crack in the earth" just don't work as well. But "must reveal a secret" or "must increase hate" would be rich, albeit creatively challenging.

This also fits right in with your setting. The mage's "requirement" is simply the particular passion or whim or need (yes, we're drawing on Sorceror again, folks) of the type of demonic forces that mage taps into. This should also, of course, be tied in with the mage's character background or personality.

Try this: whatever passion the mage was acting upon the very first time in his life that he successfully invoked the demonic force becomes the pattern for all of his future magic. Perhaps it was to escape from pain, or to strike out at a laughing bully's face... you get the idea. (Those into kickers could do a lot with this, but that's not essential for the system.)

- Walt

[Christoffer Lernö]

First off I want to thank you for showing interest in Ygg. It encourages me to work even harder at it.

Now, for the component approach, I've looked into it many times but I never felt the results were encouraging.

Because of "the way things are supposed to work" in regards to magic in my setting, I can't create an orthogonal spell effect system disguised as realms of magic like several other games out there.

But even creating non-orthogonal groups run into problems. Let me illustrate by telling you about the last try I did at creating a component based system.

After some thinking I came up with the following categories:

- Art of Daemonic Transformations (spells like change shape and twist soul come from this category)

- Daemonic Glamour (The name is a little misleading, because glamour is my name for a kind of magical matter, there are other types of glamour too. But anyway, it's used to fool the senses of the onlooker)

- Elemental powers (enchanting the elements to control them, requires the presence of that element)

- Minor Demon Summons (animate objects, create familiars and so on)

- Major Demon summons/Dimensional travel (summon demons, communicate across dimensions)

- The Art of Sealing (create talismans, protective wards and sealing runes are in this group)

- Spells (these are rituals/words of power which make use of ancient pacts between men and demonic beings "say this and I'll come and do that for you")

- Sense Illusions (pretty much everything from hallucinations to telepathy)

- Creating matter/energy (create demonic items, witchfire yadda yadda)

Just writing this down was incredibly boring. First of all there is no inspiration in these groupings. Of course the words can be chosen better and so, but the dissecting is a problem in itself.

Now many of my spells could be explained by these groups. "Death Lanterns" is a minor summoning for example. "Cloud Walking" can be done using elemental powers. "Summon Demon Knives" is an example of creating matter from demonic magic. And so on.

However, one quickly runs into problems. What about the "Death Light" where a mystic seal in the shape of an eye opens up in the palm of the warlock? The shine will transfix anyone who looks into the eye drawing their soul into the void within the eye. That doesn't work withing any category except for maybe a spell. But that's a symptom of something being wrong, because the spell then works as the catch all category.

Of course I could work from pure effects, but again you run into problems with making stuff like the Death Light. First of all in the Death Light example there are a lot of parameters: how quickly does a person lose their soul? How do you determine if a person is transfixed? What if it is interrupted, at what pace does it return? In say Champions, all those effects could be worked out, but at what cost in labour?
I don't think there is any reason to believe it's gonna be quicker because you're doing it in the middle of a game. :)
And if it's such a trouble why bother? Why not do an uber-powerful destroy everything in a burst of fire kind of spell optimized to avoid penalties for not being creative? I can't see any. It's like Ron says: Faster Better Cheaper. You have a spell creation system? There will be someone there to try to optimize it.

Not to mention the inherent problems with creating a well balanced spell creation system (with balance, I mean balance between the spells)


Now looking at Walt's suggestion instead, it avoids some of the component problems and would make an for an interesting system, however it needs to be firmly grounded in the setting as it the mechanic brings with it a significant amount of colour in itself. Unfortunately I don't see it quite compatible with my setting :( :( So all I can do is to keep it in my head and try to use it for inspiration for later.

I really would like to comment a lot more, you all have come with very interesting suggestions. If you're unclear why I still have problems with fitting the suggestions into Ygg, I can explain by PM or here in this thread.

I'm leaning towards spell lists still, but it's really really nothing I want to go through the trouble of doing. As for the 500 spells stuff, I know exactly what you mean Bailywolf. Reading through spells is usually the last thing I do when playing a game, if I do it at all. And it's not just that they are too many, most of it tend to be more or less filler material. (Which goes against one of my guiding principles for Ygg as mentioned elsewhere).

/Christoffer

[Bailywolf]

I had an idea a while back for a game with only 7 spells in the entire world (not strictly true; there were 7 Spells, 7 Runes, and 7 Names but ya get the idea).  Each spell represented a pretty wide swath of power; things like the following:

Transform- change stuff
Restore- heal/repair
Conjure- bring stuff forth
Transport- move stuff
Vex- combat
Divine- learn/sense
Charm- influence

(Things like enchanting magical items/places were handled with the 7 Runes, and summoning used the 7 Names).  


Learning a new spell was a intended to be a MAJOR powerup for a character... there were side benifits as well- the more spells you knew, the more inherently magical you became...learn all 7 and you were basicly an ageless creature sustainted on magic alone.  (learning Runes has a different effect- making you more and more resistant to magic- while Names earned you sort of supernatural street-cred so monsters and such would know you and be afraid...) .

A starting magic user gets (I think)5 picks for Arcana (I think that was what I called them)- Spells, Runes or Names.  



Whoh, sorry...tooting my own horn there...


Oh, yeah my point...


You could do something similar- each demonic discipline represents a fairly solid but broad swath of power- make the catagories you describe the whole deal...not a 'school' under which are written a list of spells.

I can formulate a pretty good idea what I can and can't do with The Art of Demonic Transformation**.  With specializations and such, players can invent specific aplications of these Arts which reflects their personality- examples are acceptable, but a cannon list of spells is agravating.  If each Art came with a dozen sample spells as well as a brief bio note on the sorcerer who created them, it would be both a great way of providing some nitty-gritty detail for your setting as well as good play examples for the creation of spells.   Say like this:

Art of Demonic Transformtions
...
...
...
Grimoire
...
...
Malacheck's Itch
History: Malacheck always prefered to see his enemies in torment rather than as corpses.  His offensive spells tended to leave his vctims incapacitated- often permenatly- but rarely dead.  He formulated the Itch during an especialy tedious diplomatic function he had been invited to because his tower resided on the disputed border between old enemy nations- it was thought that as a master of the Dark Arts and a neutral party, he could assist in the negotiations.  Instead, angry that dancing girls had failed to perform long enough and the food was in short supply, he inflicted this curse upon the leading diplomats from the oposning nations.
Effect: Malacheck's Itch creates a point of intense itching on the skin of the victim, but when an attempt is made to scratch it, the Itch moves elsewhere.  Sometimes the Itch subsides briefly, only to resurge doubled in a sensitive location.  Sometimes even the victi's teeth ans internal organs itch... Victims without the resources to have the curse lifted will scratch themselves bloody, and find it near impossible to engage in normal tasks.  
Method:  This spell summons a tiny etherial demon- a Lesser Perverse Tormentor (from the Seven Doored Chambers) which skittles about the skin of the victim, gnawing at his nerve endings and etherial form.  Witchsight will reveal the creature, and only a Banishment spell or a pair of enchanted iron tongs can pull it forth.






or some such.















** side note here- come up with some more colorful names which don't plug the "demon" thing to death... like "The Art of Hellborn Hands" instead of "Demonic Transformtaion"

[Lance D. Allen]

Malacheck's Itch

Now that's cool. I like that, alot.

[Christoffer Lernö]

I was talking with Bailywolf on PM and he had a few questions. I thought the answers might be interesting for everyone, so I post them here instead:

I like the idea that all Ygg magic draws from certain demonic/chaotic forces/entities...  does it always so draw, or are there other roads to supernatural power?

All the elder races (basically all sentient races except humans) have innate magical abilities. They are wielded more like abilities than magic though.

It's also possible to learn a kind of life magic which draws upon the life force of the user. Basically instead of using demonic magic you use your own life magic. This is similar to the magic of the elder races, but because humans don't have the same inborn magic, they instead have to draw upon their lifeforce. That means you age every time you use it. Demonic magic is about 10.000 times as strong and easy to use without the aging drawback. So I wasn't intending it for the players really. Mainly this magic is used for healing. It is a very positive magic, but you pay a heavy price.

Aside from that... and here's the thing I think people will have the hardest time to accept into the fantasy setting, so therefore I'm a little reluctant to tell about it before it's completely developed. There's something I call taomagic (for lack of a better name), which I must admit is essentially a motivation why you can make characters with wuxia-like powers. You know straight out of a HK movie. It might seem like a bad mix, western fantasy and kung fu warriors, but I've seen it so convincingly done in some manga that I really really think it's a cool idea. Anyway, this tao magic is basically ki powers, not shooting fire stuff but giving you the ability to do cool stunts. Tao warriors (fighters using this stuff, usually don't wear armour, so I guess this might be a little like the monks of AD&D 1st ed, although I never had AD&D 1st ed and I just heard second hand account of how they worked in AD&D). But don't worry, my tao warriors won't have shaved heads and run around with staffs

I still maintain one of my big hangs with magic is that many times, it just ain't worth the trouble.  In Ygg you have a pretty scary dynamic- the more magic you know, the more demonic taint you absorb, until you BECOME a demon yourself- not a good thing at all.  So magic has got to be WORTH IT.

If you looked through the example spells you can see that with a little imagination you can kill pretty much any human instantly with these spells. Doesn't matter if he kicks ass as a fighter or not. He's just as dead. Pretty much the only way not to die is if you're using working talismans. Ygg magic kicks ass, but the point is that you don't want to use it. Mages only use it in emergencies. I'd like to see mages kicking as on reputation rather than action. If people know that you can turn people into frogs just by looking at them they're not gonna mess with you. And if they don't mess with you you don't need to turn them into frogs. As a mage, work with intimidation rather than magic.

Of course when it comes to monsters you have to work magic, but usually monsters are magical too, so here the odds might even out a little. But critters, you can take them out easily, but the question is if you want to use your precious magic for such things.

or just to be able to fire a magical bolt of energy able to kill a man (especialy when I could just save on the soul, and learn to shoot a bow).

Indeed, I see the magicians learning combat skills just as the rest of the group. It's just that they have that extra edge of magic at desperate occasions. It's like walking around in a post-apocalyptic environment where people are armed with knives mostly. But you carry a bazooka. With one rocket. No way you gonna use it against the first bad guy you see. Not even the third or tenth. It's a special thing you only use as a last resort, but when you use it - man does it kick ass. People gonna ask you "why don't you use it all the time". And it's better if you don't answer that question.

What is the big incentive to use Ygg-style magic?

You have an enormous edge if you chose to use it. Nothing can stand against you if you use your full power.

How does society at large respond to it?

Fearful respect at best. How else to respond to people with the ability to turn people into piles of dust at a glance? Who voluntarily mutilate themselves and inscribe their body with evil glyphs? Some which no longer even seem human? They are monsters in human shape, but who can challenge them? Just don't arouse their anger and hope they go away.

What is a magic user's place in society?

None, hermit at best.

Is magic always eventualy certain doom, or can you become old and powerful and keep your soul and life?

As long as you don't use it, you can become old :) No but seriously, there are ways to use magic and become more powerful, but there is no escape becoming a demonic being if one keeps using one's magic. There are no kingdoms ruled by powerful magicians. Not BECAUSE they are powerful magicians anyway. There are no "Mage Wars" possible.

How common are magic users?

For the nature magic kind, every other village probably has one. For demonic magic, much more rare.

How is magic taught?

Teacher to apprentice

How is magic lore recorded?

Grimoires in the case of demonic magic, orally transmitted in case of nature magic.

[Christoffer Lernö]

Aaaaa, I just looked at Runebearers magic. About two glances, which was enough to make me want to scream.

When I saw those pages with rules (which reminded me of Shadowrun's endless magic rules) followed by the stereotypical spells it's just too much.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Runebearer is a particularly bad game. I'm just saying it reminds me of most games. Most games tend to have magic systems which could qualify as torture.

I'm bringing this up because it a good example what I don't want. I don't want pages of rules and modifiers.

One of my drafts at magic rules reflects this:

"To cast a spell, pay the taint associated with the spell and off you go. If the target has some magic resistance (using an amulet or is a magic user) he/she gets to roll a resistance roll."

That was all.

This is not unlike D&D which had a saving throw and nothing more.

This kind of magic system appeals to me. Few and clear rules. Just the essential stuff.

With a set spells you could introduce extra rules in the spell descriptions (instead of putting them in the description with the rules for spellcasting). Something I know some people feel is a BAD THING (tm), but the obvious advantage would be that the actual magic rules look very simple, and you can learn those extra things when you actually use the magic and not need to learn something you might not ever use.

A different way is removing the spells from the equation, which often requires the component-based approach already mentioned. The amount of rules usually depends on how detailed the system needs to be. With games introducing director stance you can get away with very few rules. But we kind of agreed this is a Sim/situation thing and... well I don't see it working without fairly firmly set rules on how to create magic.

My biggest worry is how some of the more interesting spell effects might be difficult to reproduce within such a system, as I already mentioned.

Bailywolf had some nice stuff in his posting which reminded me of an idea to actually create different magic for different demonic realms. Unfortunately I thought about it a little but without any concrete working ideas how to make it work within the setting. It seems to complicate things rather than simplify.

Right now I'm looking at component based systems to see if there is any chance to make my game into one, so if you have some good suggestions on what to look at, please provide a link.

/Christoffer

[Bailywolf]

How aobut a pure end-result function style system.  


Each Realm defines a swath of special effects; without skill in the correct realm, you can't create effects which derive from it.  Beyond this, it is simply a matter of how much Taint you are willing to absorb into you system vs how skilled you are.  

The following is a dead simple mock-up of the thing I have in mind...it isn't based on Ygg's trait progression or anything, just a possible scheme for setting the thing up:


Realms

Like skills or whatnot; each has a clearly defined scope of effects- without Transformation, you can't alter the shape of anything using magic.  Each skill level means you can draw on the magic more effeciently and screen yourself from more Taint than a lesser sorcerer.


Effects

When you wish to invoke a spell, cast a rune, or enchant an object you simply invoke demonic energy and suffer the consequences- you acquire Taint.  There are (oh, say) three levels of Effect.

Marginal-  the effect grants you marginal benifit- the spell will work as desired on about a 50/50 basis.

Advantage- unless resisted, the spell works precisly as desired at about 75%

Absolute- the spell works perfectly exactly as desired.



Scope

Limited- the spell's effects don't last beyond the current scene or have personal scope or range (line of sight)


Extended- the spell's effects don't last beyond the current story/have enormous scope or range (across the world)


Overreaching- the spell's effects last a very long time/have vast scope or range (across other worlds)





Use

Figure the total Tain levy of your spell-

Add 1 Taint for each level of Effect and Scope
Subtract your skill with the Realm.
Minimum Taint levy is 1


Malachech's Itch

Effect:  Marginal (50% disrupts concentration) 1
Scope: Overreaching (last a long damn time)  3
Levy: 4


Malachech is skilled with the relevent realm, and subtracts 5 from the levy.  He must stil accept 1 taint, however, as the minimum price for using magic.  His victims recieve no resistance- Malachech's power is absolute unless they are themsleves skilled in the relevent Realm or bear protective amulets.

If the spell was intended to cause someone to Itch to death (using the Absolute effect level) it would cost more taint...but would be just as certain to succede.

This places an assload of power in the hands of a magic user- but makes the price for using magic clear and fairly absolute- you use magic at all, you always pick up some Taint no matter how badass you are.



A lark.

[Bankuei]

I'm not sure how much this might help, but checking out that you really are into the secondary effects thing, how about designing spells like this:

Primary effect(choose 1, assign power)
Secondary effects(choose at least 1, assign power)
Weakness(Choose at least 1)

So, let's look at Death Lantern

Primary effect: Light (at X power, according to Ygg mechanics)
Secondary effect: Minor Burns(at Y power, probably ultra low)
Weakness: Physical contact(Each touch reduces Light effect by Z amount)

Total the power, find difficulty/cost from that.
No set lists of spells, no limitations on component/dividing magic.

You should make it a requirement to choose 1 or 2 secondary effects.
The two main issues you will have to deal with is limiting what magic can do(as in "No raising the dead", "No reversing time", etc.) if you want to have those limits.  And second, communicating the flavor of the spells.  By using a few examples, you can probably give a good idea of the types of spells people can expect.

Chris

[Christoffer Lernö]

Bailywolf: Actually, I was thinking of a similar system before too. It was a little different, mainly focusing on how aggressive and dangerous the effects was. If you did something really evil you got a lot of taint and so on. It didn't quite seem to turn out right so I ended up abandoning it.

Anyway, your system seems simple enough to work for me.

Now let me present something new I thought up last night. I couldn't get all the spells to really match and work together. Especially difficult was the part with the special spells like Death Light which has a very specific visual signature as well as an effect which only can be explained with complex magic. It seemed a good canidate for a spell created from power words or something, because it was not immediately a clear how it could be formed out of the basic magical "components" of the magic system.

Other effects were canidates for the same treatment but it could be avoided. For example "cloudwalking" which is a kind of flight, but with a clouds forming under the feet of the mage which he "walks" on. That spell could be assumed to be some kind of elemental control or forming a magical cloud of some sort. The solution was a little unsatisfactory though.

Another problem is that in disecting the spells to place them into various groups I got way too many groups for my liking. So I thought: what can I sacrifice to simplify things?

I came up with this solution:

What about creating basically four types of magical abilities.

The first (the one that actually solves my problem) is "Borrowing Demonic Abilities". Here you get stuff like "cloud walk", "death light" and many other. These are treated as abilities and you have to "learn" how to call upon that demonic ability. When you learn a demonic ability you pay permanent taint for that. When you use the abilities you need demonic energy for it, which also gives taint, but the main taint comes from learning it to begin with. Think of this as getting a special ability.

Next is "summoning & possessions". Possibly these could be separated into two categories. Possessions is about taking demonic spirits and putting them into things. Items, people, whatever. It's kind of a summoning (since you are calling upon a demonic spirit), but more of a specialized thing. The demonic spirit never really assumes a physical form. Anyway, if you learn possessions you probably have a ranking in it, something like 1 to 5 or something (the demonic abilities don't have a ranking). Then you can learn to summon special demons and stuff, but that requires little more than learning the names of it, so picking up a grimoire and flipping through it is enough. You don't need to have any special rules for it. The rulebook could have a bunch of example demons and the player could think up more. The more power the demon is supposed to have the more taint it costs.

Actually hmm.. summoning should be in a different category, since it also can be used to summon other beings and people as well. It's a way to compell things to appear. You need to know their true name and or other power words. Again this is a grimoire thing. Depending on the power of the summoned being they can put in effort to avoid being summoned. Basically putting in more demonic energy (and thus getting more taint) makes the summoning harder to resist.

Next up is "create dimensional rift". Although that one should really have a better name. It's not just about creating portals for demons to enter through (you need to have this if you want to summon something in another place or dimension that can't open dimensional gateways on it's own), but also stuff like mirror walking uses the same thing. If you want to summon demonically created items you might need to use this one. Basically all this spell does is opening a gateway. Size depends on taint spent.

Then we have the whole thing about create demonic items which I frankly don't know if it's needed, so I'm thinking of skipping that and simply say that you can use demonic summonings to "request" demonic items from the demons in that dimension.

Finally "Sealing and Warding"... this is also mainly a knowledge thing, how to use mystical seals to prevent magic, how to seal demons into items permanently and so on. Some of these might require demonic magic to fuel them. Of the groups, this is the one other character types might have the most use in learning, because it covers making a lot of simple talismans and stuff which don't require magic for it's creation. Of course the really powerful stuff needs real magic.

It might be a little difficult to see how this is an improvement.

Let me explain. First I ship off all "complicated" effects to demonic abilities. First it makes them abilities rather than formulae, which is a whole lot more appropriate. These are usually really powerful packaged powers, so it makes sense. The fact that these are the only one you pay permanent taint in learning will encourage people to only learn a few and use them often instead of having a million spells to chose from, which is something I feel is positive.
(I don't want every mage to run around with Death Light and Unlodge Soul, it's supposed to be something you only take if you intend to use it)

Now the rest of the groups are fairly well defined and don't carry over into each other. They are also appropriate to create very improvised effects, because you can think up what the demon spirit is supposed to do and then everything follows from that principle. I think the effects of possessions, summonings, dimensional gates and seals are pretty straightforward (it's when I need to think up how spells like death light works that I run into problems).

So basically I'll let the mage run wild with the possession/summoning/dimensional gate/seals & wards thing. The abilities are well defined and limited. So a typical mage might have 2 or 3 abilities and then constantly trying to learn about new wards, summonings and stuff. Learning those things won't be covered in the system, it'll be more of a "ok, you find the names of these and these demons in the book, you can now try to summon them if you want" no need to pay any currency to add them to your character.

What do you all think? Does this sound like a good idea? What is its flaws?

[AdamG]

It sounds as if you'd like to have a multitude of spell effects that a character can "tap into", without going through a complicated spell-creation system.  I don't think having a spell list is necessarily the way to go here, it doesn't mix with your ideas of creating a framework and then letting the GM and Players fill in the detail.  So, what if the Demons don't like to give people magic, it is a matter of the wizard learning how to manipulate the demons into performing a specific effect.  Thing is, this takes a lot of time and effort.

What I am suggesting is that each wizard can create his/her own spells, but only between sessions.  Instead of just "buying" new spells with experience points, or whatever reward system you are using, they actually create the spell effect.  So there is no free-form casting in play itself, the wizard may only cast the spells they already know, but they create these spells out of whole cloth between play.

This way, some of the wonder in spells is kept - there is no list to take this away, and it allows characters to build precisely the kind of wizard that they want, the only limitation being their imagination.  And, importantly, it doesn't take up play-time in figuring out how balanced the spell is to their power-level.

Costs for taint and such may be assigned for how powerful the spell is, or may be assigned by the GM, I'm not sure how I'd handle this.

--Adam