Critique my system - effort pools

[gds]

Hi All,

I thought I'd float this mechanic past you. I was trying to think of something that modelled that allowed unskilled people a chance of success in a task, even at cost. Also, something where there was a degree of strategic thinking involved in rolling dice. The idea is that this would be for a hardish sci fi game. Don't worry about the numbers I'm giving, they're just a rough guide.

Dice: D6 – rolls of 4,5,6 are a success, rolls of 1,2,3 a failure (you could adapt this to use with fudge or even fate)

Tasks: set number of successes required, 1 for easy, 3 for hard etc. For opposed tests, we compare final qualities (see below)

Effort dice pools: Three effort dice pools, one physical, one mental, and one spiritual. 20 points spread between them.

Fatigue pool: starts at zero.

Characteristics: strength, agility, dexterity, perception, charisma, intelligence. Values between 1 (really, really weak) and 5 (strong). Maybe 18 points split between them.

Skills: Values between 1 (slight skill) and 5 (master).

To carry out a task, first select which effort pool it uses, which characteristic it needs and which skill is relevant. For example, climbing a wall might be physical, strength, climbing.

The effort pools are used to determine how much effort you want to put into a task. The skill level tells you how many dice you get to roll for each effort point you expend from your pool. So, for example, we're trying to climb a wall, and the GM says the task need two successes (hard). Say we have a physical effort pool of 6 and a climb skill of 2. For every effort point we expend, we get to roll two dice. So if we reduce our effort pool to 4 we can roll 4 dice in the test. This means that the more effort you put in, the more likelihood of success. But there is a price to pay. Your characteristic tells you how effort points are converted into fatigue. In the example of the climb, if my strength was 1 and I spent two effort dice, I'd gain two points of fatigue – basically I'm a weed! If my strength was 5 (grrrr!) and I spend two effort dice, I wouldn't get any fatigue, as I'd need to expend 5 points of effort to get one point of fatigue.

What does fatigue do? For every point in my fatigue pool, I roll an extra dice during tests (preferably of a different colour). Successes on these dice alter the quality of the task.

The quality of the task is the most important element of the task to the story, such as the time it takes, the amount of damage done, the amount of face lost losing an argument, etc. We have a set of quality scales from fantastic down to poor (or time scales, whatever). Each extra success in the test over that needed to pass the test raises the quality of the result, every fatigue success lowers the quality. In the case of the climb, let's say in the story it's the speed up the wall rather than the danger that's important, and that we're racing someone. We look at the quality of the result and the quality of the opponents result, and the highest quality wins the race.

If you run out of effort pools you are exhausted in that area, unable to go on with out rest. You're screwed. Fatigue points and effort pools are then refreshed after a good night's rest or the equivalent.

One thing I like about this system is exemplified in combat. I'm fighting someone in a duel. Do I pile the effort in at the start to try and finish them quickly, but run the risk of failing and being really fatigued later on? Or do I try my luck, defending with small amounts of effort and safeguarding the rest of my effort for later on in the fight? What is my opponent doing? It really can become quite tactical.

Anyway, what do folks think of this rough and ready idea?

Cheers,

Greg

[Falc]

You have Dexterity and Agility, but nothing that represents Constitution? I'll admit that your Effort and Fatigue mechanics represent at least a part of this, but I would like to know how you'd handle, say, someone being exposed to open space without a space suit (since you're going for sci-fi).

Other than that, I like the concept. I'm not sure if your pools don't start a bit low, or perhaps you might want to lower the amount of successes required, or maybe even have a 12 / 3456 split on your dice. This is of course something that's best measured through playtesting.

It also reminds me of Barbaren!, I don't know if you're familiar with that.

[gds]

Hi,

Cheers for the comments.

Never heard of Barbaren!, what's that about then?

I was just thinking off the top of my head for those characteristics, you're right you'd need an endurance stat or someting similar. The way I see it, the characteristics represent the abilities of your body, whereas the pools represent your character as a person. For example, are you the type of person who perserves in the face of physical adversity (high effort pool) or who gives up at the first sign of trouble, that sort of thing. I guess the vacuum thing would be a test of physical - endurance - vac skills, with the quality of the test being physical damage. Pass the test and avoid damage, for now... Perhaps there should be some sort of default test for the survival instincts of the body. Hmmm.

As to the pools themselves and the chances of success, yeah that would need careful playtest - you don't want to end up rolling loads and loads of dice, but you don't want PCs falling knackered left right and centre!

Cheers,

Greg

[Ken]

Greg-

I really dig the way your Effort/Stat/Skill rules wrap around each other; great game mechanic. I try to leave room for success for normal unskilled characters when designing rules, so my questions will mostly relate to that.

1) Are all task resolution dice based on the (effort x skill) equation, or do character get a base die to start off with? It seems that characters would become pretty useless fast in prolonged combat or skill-heavy instances. Which doesn't suck, mind you; and may be totally what you had in mind. Just off the top of my head, I would probably suggest effort pools recharging faster than fatigue (maybe effort pools reset between major scenes or dramatic story points).

Also, there are plenty of non-dramatic instances where skill use may come up, but not be super important to the story. Taking lasting hit to your effort pools to accomplish every-day tasks may be too draining. Did you have any alternate ideas about this?

2) How would someone without a skill in something, but with plenty of natural aptitude, pull off a task. Do characters get any credit for effort spent without their being a skill modifier? Two effort= 1d6? Automatic Fatigue?

Neat ideas. That is all I've got for now. Looking forward to your response.

Take care,

Ken

[David Berg]

Greg,

I've had one problem with Effort-Pool-type mechanics in my games, and it is this:

Most dramatic, "can I do this or can't I?" tests in my games have behooved the player character to try as hard as he possibly could; while in most un-dramatic, don't-have-to-try-hard situations, tests and die rolls have been unwelcome.  Thus, the ability to specify how hard you're trying is superfluous.

Not sure if this applies to whatever game you're planning on running this in; just something to keep an eye out for.

Ps,
-David

[gds]

Hi, cheers for the comments all!

I hadn't really planned it that far to be honest, but I like the idea of effort pools refreshing between scenes but fatigue lasting until you get a decent chance to rest. I think what I would do with the natural aptitude skills is have them default to a skill level of 0.5 (2 effort for one dice) - so if you put a lot of effort in, you can still do stuff and if you characteristic is high you might not get too knackered from the attempt. Knowledge bases skills default to 0 - no training, no dice. I'll give it some more thought.

As for dramatic and undramatic tests, I think you could cover that with a sort of caveat that you don't have to roll if there's no stress involved in the test. For example, if you're trying to fix the electrics in a car and you have all day to do it at your leisure, then you don't need to put effort in - if you have sufficient skill you simply get the job done. Perhaps the GM rates the repair as being 'routine' at a certain skill level. If, however, you're tyring to get the electrics in the car working so you can chase the scumbag who just drove off with the suitcase full of the mob bosses cash that you 'borrowed', you need to roll.

I would like the system to be make players think about what they're doing in the test, rather than just rollin gthe dice whenever they fancy. They'll have to ask themselves 'how much effort do I put in?' before they make the attempt.

That's the idea anyway!

Greg

[Vulpinoid]

This looks like the start of a great and innovative system.

My only question at this stage is how damage would work into it.

Not just the damage from the vacuum of soace...but how does a wounded soldier get affected when he has to continue the fight after a couple of nasty wounds?

The kind of things that's typically covered by hit points or health levels.

V

[gds]

Cheers!

Hmmm, good point.

Well, you could go with wound levels or hit points. Maybe wounds cause extra fatigue dice to be rolled, or temporarily reduce characteristics so that you get fatigued more quickly. In fact you could cobine the two as a damage/shock mechanic. The first thing damage does is cause you to lose a wound level or two, which causes you to take on more fatigue dice. Then in the long term, the injury reduces your characteristics so that you get fatigued more often. Hmmm....anyone else have any thoughts?

Greg

[David Berg]

Greg,

I totally agree with you on undramatic tests.

For dramatic tests, though, here's the potential problem I envision:

If, however, you're tyring to get the electrics in the car working so you can chase the scumbag who just drove off with the suitcase full of the mob bosses cash that you 'borrowed', you need to roll.

Will you ever make this roll at any less than the full amount of Effort you can expend?  It strikes me that you will decide either:
a) this is the best course of action, and success is absolutely vital, so burn max Effort and deal with the repercussions
or
b) it would be cool if hotwiring the car works, but you have other options if it doesn't, so you'll save your Effort points for when you really need 'em, and roll for the hotwiring without burning any

I readily admit that I haven't visualized gameplay in total under the system you've proposed, so maybe this wouldn't be an issue.  But in some of my past game designs, it has been.

[gds]

Yeah, I think that's the crux of the matter - you have to make effort a sufficiently valuable commodity to make it worth preserving, but also useful enough to consider burning at high values. For example, if you get it back at the end of the scene, you have to make the size of the pool relevant to the no. of tests in the scene. If there's only one test you're gonna burn the lot, but if there are lots of tests (at least the player thinks there will be) then they have to consider conserving. I think you could do a lot with the quality of the roll - you get less than the required result to 'pass' the test with a good quality, so you still pass the test, but something else happens. Maybe you get the car going but you take a long time, so you lose the other car, or, I dunno, something else...consequences I guess...

I guess what I'm saying is that in this case a good quality to the test is giving the player some narrative control in stating what good stuff happens. Hitting the nail onthe head with the number of successes mean it happens as described, and getting less successes means that the GM can impose some consequences. In this way of envisioning the test, the fatigue dice let the GM impose consequences on the test result for the PC being knackered.

In fact - you could take it farther. If you have the skill, you do the job. You have electronics, you can fix the car. But if you want to add another factor - in this case you want to do it fast - you have to put some effort in. Likewise when you're tired and the fatigue dice go against you, the GM imposes these consequences. It's not about success or failure, but about the details of what happens... hmmm...

I'm rambling....that make sense?

Greg

[Vulpinoid]

You could always make the effort pool regenerate in relation to the number of tests performed.

I definitely wouldn't have all the effort pool regenerate at the end of a scene.

But here's two options I thought of.

Instead of a scene with an arbitrary number of tests, or a day with a similarly arbitrary number of tests, make the pool replenish as a function of story accomplishment. Once the characters achieve a significant goal within the game, they might replenish their enitre pool. If they fail but get a chance to re-assess the situation and specifically take time out to consider the events so far they might need to roll a die for every expended effort trait, on a 1-3 they don't get the trait back, but on a 4-6 they don't.

A second option would give a far more free floating pool of points where the character might get a chance to regain an effort point every time they succeed in a test (representing their confidence building up after a positive outcome), while it just doesn't build up at all if they keep failing. In this way a character will tend to stick to the things they know they are good at, and a character in this type of system will only occasionally attempt the difficult tasks, usually throwing all of their exertion behind the effort when they are forced to confront such a challenge.

As for health status I've had an idea (this builds upon what you have written).

Maybe each level of wounds represents an effort trait that must be spent without benefit to simply perform actions. For example, three levels of wounds means the player needs to spend three effort points just to perform a skill while any extras count as bonus dice. If the character has two or less in their effort pool, they pass out and cannot act until medical attention or some other effect returns them to play.

I definitely think this system creates a strategic element when GM's preserve a hidden element in their play.

The enemy guard has used 6 dice in every attack so far, does he have an attack score of 6 and is he just playing with us, or does he have an attack score of 2 and he is burning through 4 effort points with every one of his strikes? Do we wait until he's exerted himself out, or is he just waiting for us to falter before he starts pulling out the big strikes?

V

[Ken]

In fact - you could take it farther. If you have the skill, you do the job. You have electronics, you can fix the car. But if you want to add another factor - in this case you want to do it fast - you have to put some effort in. Likewise when you're tired and the fatigue dice go against you, the GM imposes these consequences. It's not about success or failure, but about the details of what happens... hmmm...

That is a very cool idea. I'm all about keeping games simple; not that you have to be. As a game designer, the most daunting thing (to me) is to simulate in a game is the most ordinary stuff, because there is this mentality to make everything fit in some mechanical mold. Sometimes things should work, because they work-if you catch my drift. This opinion mostly comes from games (not necessarily rules) that leave you high and dry if you don't have the exact task you are trying to do on your character sheet. This is usually more of a GM thing, but its nice if rules address the mundane & ordinary things and keep them simple, not just another die roll.

As far as pool replenishment; if getting all of your points back between scenes diminishes the value of the pools there are some organic alternatives:
a) get half of what your missing back between scenes; this will automatically create a system of diminished returns, where you get most of your points back immediately and then the rest come creeping back towards the end of the game.
b) set a characteristic as the pool replenishment stat; get a number of pool points equal to that stat between scenes
c) pool points that led to a successful task resolution come back between scenes/ those that didn't come back after a good nap- if you've been looking for a way to add tokens to your game, this is the ticket- lol

Let me know what you think and take care,

Ken

[dindenver]

Hi!
  This mechanic reminds me of Shadow of Yesterday. And perhaps you can borrow a great technique from Clinton. Have the pools regenerate based on actions. In SoY, there are pools that are also just as valuable to regenerate. In that game, for instance, if you want to recover the Vigor pool (used for physical tests), you have to engage in a physical activity with another character (sparring, etc). The advantage of this method is that it makes the stories more active and less, I sleep 6 hours after each fight. Of course, you might go a different way, but I think the idea of having the char "do" something to regen those pools is brilliant and is worth modifying for your game.

  Sounds like you are still working out your pools/stats/skills list. I would suggest that you make sure that the numbers of stats/skills (for instance, your initial list has 3 physical, 2 mental and one spiritual stat) is even between pools. So that one pool/stat/skill doesn't become the "dump" stat. In other words if there is only one stat and a small handful of skills under Spirit, then it becomes cheaper to become proficient at those and you can spend less points there and more on other stats/skills. Makes sense? Also, this is just my philosophy, but I will pass it on, make sure that each pool/stat has a skill for each type of situation (combat/social/mental/etc). For instance, you can put the social skill "Intimidate" under physical. the idea behind this design philosophy is that a character that is specialized is not prevented from being competent in most arenas of conflict. If I make a brutally physical character maybe I should be able to manage some mental tasks (some crafting/performance skills maybe) and social tasks (again intimidation, etc) or spiritual tests (Will maybe?)...

  Finally, I wold use the effort system for anything that is germain to the story. In your car electronics example, the poor char that had to spend all day to finish the job, surely he would be fatigued? Maybe if its a low stress situation, the char can spend one fatigue to automatically succeed...

  Seems like a cool mechanic, good luck man!

[gds]

Cheers folks!

Thanks for the commenst again, I'll give this some more thought. the encourgaing thig is that you guys seem to think there is a good idea in here, so I think I'm going to see it though.

Of what everyone here has said, here's some ideas that I really like the sound of.

1) Replenishing after story goals - achieve something in the story and get to replenish some of your effort pool, perhaps as was suggested you get your characteristic back as the replenish value. That way, if you're physically strong you recover quickly, if you're weak it's gonna take more time. this could be done within a scene or within the whole story structure, depending on the size of the pools etc.

2) Balanced skills/characteristics/pools - a definte must and probably the trickiest bit!

3) Wound levels cause fatigue - sounds like a lot of sense. Maybe these can't be got rid of without treatment...i see what you mean about tokens...

4) Non-die rolling skills - if you can do it and there's no dramatic element, it gets done. But depending on whether the task is long or physical, the GM can impose a fatigue point to represent the work.

5) Achieve a task by rolling all successes (on all the dice) and get an automatic 'inspiration' effort return of half the points you spent, rounded down. I.e. you need to make three successes and roll four dice (spending two efort) - they all come up successes so you get one point back into your effort pool. I like the idea of the lucky pay off.

Anyway, all I thought of for now, cheers you guys for all your cool ideas and feedback. The forge rocks!

Greg

[tex]

This is pretty amazing.  I joined The Forge something like a week ago and this is already the second time I've discovered my ideas were not as original and unique as I supposed.  In my system, I call them "resources" instead of "effort pools", and like yours, there's one each for physical, mental, and "spiritual" tasks.  Characters can use them to improve rolls, though I place a cap on "short-term" resource expenditure, for the sake of realism.

If you'd like to see my own take on it, check out http://zuggers.org/orp.pdf, page 26, which is Section 3.6.