[Grey Ranks] Feh! You mean nothing to me!

[Solamasa]

url=http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=24329.0] [Grey Ranks]Playtest over Skype

[Steve Segedy]

Hey Kit,

Thanks for writing about your experience with Grey Ranks.  I think you're assessment is accurate, in that the game's focus is on telling the story of a crew during the uprising, and capturing the essential moments and emotions of that time and place.  Less emphasis is placed on individual characters, and with only three sessions of play (or even one, if playing a short game), you don't have the time to really inhabit the character as deeply as you might in some games.  However, while the game focuses on the tragic downfall, it doesn't force you to play that way.

The basic character elements give you enough material to let you explore a character pretty well, and give you the opportunity to make them matter, if you're willing to invest in them somewhat.  In addition to the thing you hold dear, you earn a pair of reputations after the first chapter, which should guide your play as well.  I've played in games where the reputations I was given by the other players were Aloof and Obsessed, and I used that to develop a back-story (through personal scenes and other interactions) about the loss of his father and his determination to prove himself and get revenge against the German officers who took him. 

Each of these character resources (things held dear, reputations) as well as the other elements (age and district) should serve as hooks for the story you want to play.  You are meant to read more into each of them, to add the detail and flavor to realize that character for you.  My suggestion is to take another read through Parts One and Six of the book (the history and supplementary sections) to get more ideas for how you can make your characters unique and real, so that they matter more to you through the course of the story. 

Cheers,
Steve

[Solamasa]

[Jason Morningstar]

Hey Kit, I appreciate your thoughtfulness on this issue.  I don't have much to add yet, but there's not really a baseline of experience with Grey Ranks yet to compare your game with.  Speaking as the most experienced Grey Ranks player in the universe (grin), I can say that, thusfar, I have not seen a consistent pattern of use emerge.  I've played games that hinged on Reputation, and games that ignored age almost entirely, for example. 

[Steve Segedy]

For what it's worth, Kit, I think I know what you mean about playing without a lot of investment in your character.  Sometimes I've played games where I was essentially trying the character on for size- he or she has some interesting traits, or some colorful motivations, and I'm just using the character to explore the boundaries of the larger story.  Other times I've found myself completely in tune with the character- I really get why he's angry, and I'm driven by his needs.  The character's successes (and failures) become valuable to me, and I'll invest a lot of myself in the game to see to see his story unfold.

I tend to think these different styles are largely about player style and the length of the game.  It's easier for me to get truly invested in a character if I play that character a lot, over an extended period of time. I can imagine this working in a standard D&D campaign, a season or three of Prime Time Adventures, or a run of The Shadow of Yesterday.  However, in a short-run game (one to three sessions, say) like the Roach or The Mountain Witch your characters are just fun, disposable tools used in the crafting of the bigger story.

[ironick]

This is Nick, another player in the same game of Grey Ranks.  With all due respect, Steve, I don't think that short term nature of GR is what is creating this effect for Kit.  We've actually stretched this game out quite a bit (since July), playing only every few weeks and getting through only one or two chapters each session.  I don't know if it's something that is more endemic to our group, but I feel kind of the same way about my character Zofia (Nena).  I *like* her, and I care what happens to her, but mostly to the extent that she makes the story cool.  I do sympathize with her, especially when I narrate something horrible happening to her, but I don't really *identify* with her.

I don't know what it is.  I've played plenty of games in which there is even less personal info about my character on the sheet than in GR, but I identified more with my PC and felt less like a writer.  Many of them weren't even all that long-playing.  I'm wondering if this kind of play is something of a defense mechanism against the rampant bleakness that we tend to throw into our games.

Nick

[Steve Segedy]

That's a good point, Nick- it may be that the serious and graphic nature of Grey Ranks makes it a little hard to embrace the characters too closely.  I guess there's a natural tendency to want to keep "trainwreck" characters at a bit of a remove so that when things go downhill you're not too emotionally invested.  I know I've felt that way watching movies.

Thanks for the thread, guys!  This is really interesting to me.

[FruitSmack!]

Hi,

I'm Aaron, I also play in this group.

See, I'm going to have to say that I don't believe this is a specific quirk of Grey Ranks and is instead limited to player preference.  Why?  Because I never feel the same need to attach myself to a character that Kit and Nick are describing to any character in any game.  I personally don't need to immerse myself in the character and "feel" them in order to enjoy RPGs. 

That's not to say I view them as disposable tools for my enjoyment.  I do like my characters and enjoy getting into the "role" concept of trying to act or react as them, but ultimately, I'm the player and I'm using this fancy, complex game piece to play a game that brings me enjoyment and fun.  Whether or not it that enjoyment is from telling a cooperative story or ransacking a dungeon while killing orcs.

So, yah, I think this is a player preference thing.  However, I can easily see how games that are focused on a specific, driving end goal might not facilitate the generation of that attachment or immersion of character.

Hope that sheds some murky light on this topic.

aaron

[ironick]

Aaron, I don't think that Kit and I are saying we need to have that immersion to enjoy the game, I think we're just saying that certain experiences (possibly due to the game itself, possibly not) generate a particular kind of gaming pleasure, distinct yet equal to character immersion.  Am I reading that right, Kit?

[Bret Gillan]

Kit,

I played in a Grey Ranks game and found myself more attached to the frighten, immature girl I played than nearly any other character I've ever played in a game. Knowing that something terrible was waiting for only made me care about her that much more. So I'd be willing to bet that it's an individual thing. I'm of the mind that player investment in characters is an individual, player-side thing that can be affected by a game system, but not reliably or predictably.

[FruitSmack!]

Aaron, I don't think that Kit and I are saying we need to have that immersion to enjoy the game, I think we're just saying that certain experiences (possibly due to the game itself, possibly not) generate a particular kind of gaming pleasure, distinct yet equal to character immersion.  Am I reading that right, Kit?

Nick,

I didn't specifically stop at immersion.  I recognize that Kit and you are talking about some sort of attachment to your character.  It could be immersion, or compassion for the character, or empathy with their plight, or whatever.

I'm saying that I personally don't feel that way.  When Kit is talking about how he feels to his character during Grey Ranks is how I feel for all my characters.  And I have no problem with that because frankly I don't really care about having an actual empathy.  I'm interested more in doing things with my character with the game.

Make sense?

aaron

[Anna Kreider]

Kit and I actually talked about this recently.

Kit asked me what my experience was with roleplaying and my characters, if I ever struggled to find empathy with my characters. And for the most part, I had to say no (though there have been exceptions). We talked about it more, and I think we might be operating under different assumptions during character creation.

Personally, I favor as little character creation as possible. I love letting my sense of a character develop organically through choices I make during play. But the sense I got from Kit was that he preferred to have a better understanding of his character before getting started. Not necessarily sitting down and figuring out everything about a character's background, but at least taking the time to figure out a character's motivations.

So maybe what's needed is a bit more attention paid to this during character creation? Rather than jumping immediately into the action, taking time to let those who want to get a handle on their characters.

Of course. I may be putting words in Kit's mouth here. I had a hard time grokking where Kit was coming from, since my own preferences seem to be so different than his.

~Anna

[Jason Morningstar]

Did you guys play a full 10 chapter game?  I can't recall.

[ironick]

We're not done with it yet, actually.  We play over Skype, so the medium, time constraints, adding a player after two chapters, and scheduling conflicts have meant that we've only gotten through one or two chapters every session.  We're up to Chapter 7 now, and we're hoping we might be able to just buckle down and finish it next time, considering one character is dead and another is going to be resolved in Chap. 7.

Nick

[FredGarber]

Personally, I favor as little character creation as possible. I love letting my sense of a character develop organically through choices I make during play. But the sense I got from Kit was that he preferred to have a better understanding of his character before getting started. Not necessarily sitting down and figuring out everything about a character's background, but at least taking the time to figure out a character's motivations.

English is such an imprecise language (not that I'm fluent in any others).  "Character" is used outside the game world, and sometimes that brings baggage.
To some players, exploring character means "How does my persona stay true to his morals and ideals in the ethical challenges of the game world?"
To some players, exploring character means "How does my persona develop/abandon his morals and ideals as he is exposed to the ethical challenges of the game world?"

They're different enough that players in different camps sometimes has trouble seeing what the other does as "role-playing," IME.  And systems that encourage one camp of play might create a lack of immersion for the other camp:
If I don't know what my character cares about, how do I care about what he cares about?
OR
If I don't get to choose what my character cares about, how do I relate if I don't care about those things?