[Twilight] Power 19

[J Tolson]

[johntfrazer]

A twentieth question you might want to think about: Why should I play this instead of Scion?

I'm not asking to be snarky and dismissive, but because there is a certain overlap of themes. The main differences I could see from your post are the task resolution and playing up the followers element. So let me ask you two questions:

Will your mechanics offer the players a real feeling of power? After all, the emphasis on storytelling could give the divine abilities a certain arbitrary feel.

What about dealing with followers will be enjoyable or interesting? "Gods need the worship of followers" is a pretty common rpg trope, but if that's not the case, why do the gods want followers? How can the followers be used. What about your mechanics allows the players to feel a reflected version of the satisfaction their characters must get from exploiting/helping their followers. (And this is a general concern rather than a specific criticism - I've found that most game systems do a pretty poor job with characters of political/religious power. How is yours different?)

[J Tolson]

Thank you for taking the time to look this over, John.

As for why you should play this instead of Scion, I honestly couldn't tell you; this was the first I had heard of it. My earliest drafts of Twilight go back to 2002 (as a standalone game, 2003), so this isn't a question I've encountered before (Scion came out in 2007, correct?)

But not knowing something has never stopped me before, so I've looked over the reviews, previews, and basically anything I could find about the game. Just going from those, it appears that Twilight offers a few things that Scion doesn't that would provide for substantially different game play. For one, Scion has a specific setting (the modern world), whereas Twilight is more open ended in that regard. Twilight allows players to take a god from the creation of the world (indeed, the players can create the world themselves), through its lifespan, and into Ragnarok (and possible through it). Thus, on the surface it appears that any story that could be told in Scion could also be told in Twilight, not all stories that could be told in Twilight can also be translated into Scion.

Twilight also offers a greater degree of what might be called "authenticity." I don't add anything to mythologies in order to force them to fit into a specific setting. As such, players can play Thor as he is in the Poetic Edda, or Zeus as he is in the Iliad. It is like offering a geek the chance to own the original Star Wars trilogy without any of the modifications that have been done to it over the years.

As for offering the players a feeling of real power, I hope so. Specifically, the feeling of power that I expect player will feel is similar to the feeling of power that a GM gets when designing a world/adventure for any other game. This is translated in-game through some degree of player control over the narration and also through the extent to which a god's power can effect the world around it. As mentioned, characters can participate in the creation of the world itself (creating rivers, setting mountains, deciding if it is flat, donut-shaped, a sphere, or something else entirely, etc).

However, there is also a little feeling of powerlessness. All the gods are bound to Fate (a pre-determined series of events that will eventually lead to their deaths).

As for dealing with followers, I hope that it will be enjoyable for the same reason that people like playing games like The Sims or Civilization; the satisfaction of seeing something small and insignificant grow into something truly great. Pride, then, would be a motivating emotion.

Mechanic-wise, part of what I hope will be enjoyable again relates to the GM-power-trip of world creation; the gods get to determine what their worshipper's culture looks like. Animal (or human) sacrifices, an established priesthood, god-kings, organized religion, etc can all be traits that players choose for their worshippers. These traits can benefit the gods directly (human sacrifice offers a rather nice energy boost), but they can also cause averse effects (decrease in worshiper base, increased difficulty in obtaining converts). Ideally, distinct cultural personalities will also emerge; worshippers are almost like one large NPC that everyone gets to control a little. They aren't always friendly; they often have interests that aren't to your benefit, etc.

Hopefully that answered your questions to some extent. Please let me know if not, if I forgot to address one, or if you'd like more information on something (or if you have any other thoughts on the matter, which I do value). I will continue to ponder these questions and might come back with a different answer once I've had some time to consider more deeply how those issues are being reinforced (or ignored) by game mechanics.

Thanks again for the response.

~Joel

[Troy_Costisick]

quote]It forces players to consider if their action is truly important (important enough to waste energy on), how committed they are to their ideals (how much energy to sink into it), and how desperate they are for an outcome (will they trust luck to make up for lack of ability and effort?)

[J Tolson]

Thanks for the feedback Troy and for finding the game interesting.

-Sounds like this should be a competitive game.  Have you considered pitting the players against each and developing cost charts or formulas for purchasing monsters and obstacles?Quote

-How does the game end exactly?  What's it like?
-What are the specific, possible outcomes for the characters and for the players?  What will the players and characters get out of the endgame you have created for your game?Quote

Quote

-Who sets the amounts of energy needed to overcome an obstacle?

Previously, I would have said the GM alone. However, given your wonderful idea of players purchasing obstacles, I am now envisioning a bit of a bidding war for this as well.
GM: "Atop this mountain rest the hammer that you seek. Energy needed 10.
Player1: "Undaunted, Bobtar begins to climb this really huge mountain. Energy needed 15, and I get a little bonus if I succeed."
Player2: "Ah, but this is the dreaded Vintermunt. Its slopes are so cold as to freeze the skin off ice. Energy needed 20, and I get a bonus."
Player3: "And as we all know, the rocks of Vintermunt are like the blades of an axe. Energy needed 25, and I get a nice bonus."
Player1: "Dude, Bobtar doesn't have the power for that; if he fails we get nuttin."
Player 3: "True, make that 22 energy and I'll just take a normal bonus."
Player1: "Still doubt I can make it, not with the way my luck has been running tonight. The swart-elves live in this mountain and know of a secret passage inside it. You need to have you character go talk to them and bargain us passage. Energy needed 15, and I get a cool bonus for cleverly overcoming the excessively impossible obstacles."

-What happens to the followers when a god uses them to buy traits and artifice?

They are still there; followers are more of a tapped resource than a burned resource. Say my god gains 100 more followers and uses those to improve his might. Those 100 followers are still there, but they can't be used to "buy" anything else. If he looses 1, unfortunately, he looses that improvement to his might (until he gets the follower back). If all the gods abilities adds up to 1000 followers, and the god has 1025 followers, that means he has 25 followers he can invest in something else. This does mean that players need to mark which traits were purchased when and in what order (first in first out, when followers are lost).

-What happens when the communal pool is empty?  Does it ever get empty?

The communal pool of followers? Never gets empty because it is never used. If that pantheon has 10,000 followers, every god in that pantheon gets 10,000 followers to use to buy traits (thus, the same singular follower might be giving Thor increased might and Odin increased wisdom), and the followers as a group get 10,000 "points" to use to improve themselves. Thus, if a player wants more followers they need to make things harder on themselves (and their friends), but not too hard or else they get jack and squat (and maybe less).

I have been toying with the idea of modifying this through the use of "mystery cults" that would give only one god more followers, rather than the pantheon in general, but I think I'll need to develop the entire worshiper section of the mechanics a lot more before I know for sure.

Again, thanks for the interest and I hope I answered your questions. If not, or if you want more info, please feel free to let me know.

~Joel

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya Joel,

I've been thinking more about your game, and I have a few ideas.  But before I suggest them, let me ask you another question.  Your purpose for play in this game, is it more for telling a story about the gods or is it more for seeing if you can survive the Appocalypse?  Which of those two things is more important to you both as a designer and as a player?

Peace,

-Troy

[J Tolson]

[Troy_Costisick]

Peace,

-Troy

[J Tolson]

Sorry it took so long to address your request; unfortunately all my old playtests of the resolution system are outdated now, thus I put together a hypothetical situation. It displays the resolution systems from a few different perspectives. Hopefully it is what you were looking for; if not, let me know.

~Joel

***
Example 1: Unimportant Actions

Jean (GM): You are on your way to Jotunheim, to the halls of the giant-king, Utgarth, to stand as guests of honor on behalf of all the Aesir per his invitation.

Thurgood (Player1/Thor): Man, that sounds boring. Can't we smash some Troll skulls along the way, to liven things up a bit?

Jean: Um, sure. Why do you want to do this?

Thurgood: It just sounds fun.

Locke (Player2/Loki): Meh, why not. We always have time for some smashy-smashy.

Jean: So you have no invested interest in this? Alright, that really isn't an "important action" but if you guys want to act it out...; Upon the road it seems as if the very earth moves as three creatures rise from the rocks, tall as oaks but bent double so that their chins rest upon their knees. Grass grows atop their heads, shrubs out of their ears, and the begin lumbering towards you, unthinking malice turning their slate-eyes red.

Thurgood: Thor the Defender raises might Mjolnir over his head and cries out "Be gone ill wights, or face mjolnir's might! I will smash you to Hel's Halls, and even Nagrind beneath!"

Jean: They do not heed you but lash out with their mud covers hands, hitting you across the head.

Locke: While Mr. T there is spouting fancy words, Loki the trickster sneaks behind them and hits the middle one with a stick, placing it in the hands of the back one before disappearing again.

Jean: The troll rubs its head and turns. Seeing its friend with the object that attacked it, it hits him across the face and they begin to brawl.

Thurgood: Thor is unhurt by the blow, for he is hail and hearty, but still he takes a step back before letting his hammer fly. It speeds through the air, crackling with power, and takes the head of the Troll clean off.

Jean: How can a hammer take anything CLEAN off?

Thurgood: Well, the head is gone at least.

Jean: And troll brains are splattered everywhere.

Locke: The middle troll notices that his friend has just had his head hammered off. Leaving the limp body of the other troll, which he had strangled to death, behind, he begins to advance on Thor.

Thurgood: "Mjolnir, return to my hand!" The hammer flys back.

Locke: Meanwhile I tie the trolls shoe laces together and he trips and falls on his own sword.

Jean: Triumphant, you continue towards the halls of Utgarth. Unless there are any objections, you reach there without further incident.

Locke: Sounds good to me:

Thurgood: *nods*

Example 2: Low Importance

Jean: Utgarth welcomes you; "Greetings noble Aesir! Greetings Thor the Defender, destroyer of Giants! Greetings Loki the Trickster, sayer of half-truths and plunderer of fortune!

Thurgood: Hey, don't forget about my servant, Thjalfi! He is here too, remember?

Jean: "And welcome young one. You are Thjalfi, Thrall Mitman's son, brother to Maiden Roskva, are you not? Be well welcomed, mortal man, to the halls of Utgarth!"

Locke: Jeeze, why'd you have to bring him along?

Thurgood: Hey, you could have had a cool hero artifice too, but you choose to break your Link of Fate instead.

Jean: Anywho, you follow the king into his hall where a splendid feast has been prepared, with lamb, pork, orangutan's, fruit bats, sloths, breakfast cereals-

Locke: yeah yeah

Jean: As you are eating, Utgarth comments "Why Loki, you but touch your food! Should I be offended, for I have heard that your appetite is unparalleled?"

Locke: "You have heard well, Utgarth King, but look - I have eaten more than any of your men in the hall!"

Jean: "They do not wish to offend a guest who eats as if sick. But as you say you are as I have heard, perhaps you will show us by means of a challenge? Let not the table-peace be broken, but perhaps you will agree to an eating contest with the least of my servants, Logi here."

Locke: I take a look at the scrawny boy and agree.

Thurgood: Is this really important?

Locke: Of course it is! He has challenged my pride as the god of jerks!

Jean: Two plates are brought out-

Thurgood: You mean troughs; makes things a bit more interesting and we'll get a better reward

Jean: Right, two troughs are brought out, each heavy with food, and Loki and Logi take their places at each of them.

Locke: Ha, this should be easy. I will put a little effort into the action. *moves some energy from his energy pool to the table and places it under a cup so no one can see it*

Jean: Perhaps it will be easy, but for who? *moves some energy from Logi's energy pool to the table and hides the amount under a cup*

Locke: I get energy from my skills *adds more energy to his pool on the table*

Jean: So does Logi *does the same*

Locke: AND luck is on my side *rolls two d10 and adds up the total; +5. He then places that many energy into his pool on the table*

Jean: Probably more than Logi *rolls two d10, adds up the total, -1, and has to remove some energy from his pool*

Locke: *reveals his energy total* HA! I'd say Loki probably finishes first!

Jean: Utgarth sees Loki looking triumphant but says "You did indeed finish first, but you left so much behind!"

Locke: I only left bones!

Jean: True enough, but Logi ate the bones, the plates, and the trough! *reveals his energy total*

Example 3: Greater Importance
*Much later*

Jean: "I have heard it said that Thor is mightiest among the gods, mightiest among all things that live in the branches of gleaming Yggdrasil."

Thurgood: "You have heard truly, Utgarth King."

Jean: "I had also heard that Loki was the most ravenous hall-guest, yet he was beaten by the smallest boy in my service. How can I know these tales to be true?"

Thurgood: "A test in turn, to restore honor to Aesir kind. Pick the best of your hall, those bench brothers who sit at your side, who you deem best able to match the might that causes even the world serpent to quake!"

Locke: <Thurgood: Cricky! How do you think I can overcome that?

Locke: Loki says "what is the matter, son of Odin? Fear thou a test of might? Womanly ways these are, I deem them."

Thurgood: So that is how you want to play? Thor responds "Recall I can a time when Loki went forth, to the halls of a giant, and served nine seasons as a milking maid. Womanly ways these are, deem I them."

Jean: So apparently you are going to face Old Age?

Thurgood: Yup

Jean: And this is important because your honor, and the honor of your pantheon, is on the line?

Thurgood: Yup.

Jean: Alright... but Utgarth calls forth an old crone and says "Truly, Thor of the Aesir, I do not wish to hurt you. Wrestle you this crone, who nursed me on my mother's knee. Canst thou best her, thunderer?"

Thurgood: Hey, what's up! "You do insult me, Utgarth King! Find a better opponent for I would not harm one with a foot in the grave."

Jean: "Best her first, to put my men's misgivings aside, then better grapple-friend will I give you."

Thurgood: Whatever. *Places effort, skill, and luck energies on the table, Jean does the same for the crone; they both reveal their amounts and Thor looses*

Thurgood: What?! Impossible!

Jean: The crone forces you back and you stumble.

Thurgood: realizing I underestimated the Crone, I really try now *repeats the process again, this time putting all of his potential energy into it; he still looses, but just barely*

Jean: The old crone forces you to your knees, but she cannot topple you. Long you are locked as such, till Utgarth calls it a tie.

Locke: The Old Crone was really Old Age, wasn't she?

Jean: Of course. But your characters don't know that, at least not yet.