Question for the experts

[patrick80]

From what I've read here, no one is comfortable calling themselves an expert, but you all have much more experience than I do, so you are experts to me.

I'm new to the forum. I have been reading it for the past week and getting an eyeful of a culture I was only marginally aware of. Thanks for that. Its fascinating.

I come from a D&D background and while I've played more narrative-leaning games, I have a soft spot for combat and short campaigns. I know this may sound square, but Gamma World is my favorite game. Earlier this year some people I game with and I began creating a game that most fully meets our needs as players. Reading these forums illustrates that nothing we've cooked up is entirely original, but I think we've got a system for initiative that makes more sense to me than most and a host of character generation options that would thrill me if I picked this one up. 

I have a question regarding what to do next. Playtest, clearly, until our pencils dull to nubs. But after that.

I see a lot of people here have gone in the pdf direction. That is an interesting option and I would do it for any number of ideas I have, but this one seems like the sort of thing I would've bought when I was at the game store at age 16 or would pick up today. So it's not just ego talking when I say I'd like to see it in print at some point. I was hoping to hear from some of you that have done POD or large runs about your expectations vs the reality. I know it's annoying for me to not share what the idea is because you can't properly gauge it's potential, but my professional life has been spent working for small entertainment companies and we never talk about ideas without a release in front of us. So it'll take a minute for me to get comfortable enough to open up like that. But basically the game is sci-fi to a degree but painfully (?) simulationist in play. This is a game for nerds on a power trip. No sad vampires, no life-coaching through gameplay. Just solid fun for shallow misfits.

I don't want to get up in anyone's business by asking for specific numbers they've done, but say someone had a somewhat saleable idea and pounded the pavement to make it sell, what would be a good sales goal? Again, I know without seeing if the mechanics work or if it's written like a drunk myspace post, there is no way to tell. But I guess I'd just like to give some additional direction to the project besides making it the perfect game for my group. A publishing goal of some kind would be an exciting turn for something we began on a lark.

Thanks for having me and thanks for taking the time to respond.

[Eero Tuovinen]

We need to discuss your publishing goals in more concrete terms. No need to discuss the content of the game if you're not comfortable, but there's plenty of nuances in why a person might publish a game. For example:
- Is it important to you to have the book in game stores because you associate game stores with importance, so it's an ego thing?
- Do you want to make plenty of money on the game?
- Do you want to work actively to market your game?
- Are you interested in the rigors and practicalities of publishing?
- Do you want to reach the people who would specifically enjoy and benefit from your game?
- Do you want permission to call yourself a game designer?
These questions and others like them are what determines the wise course for each individual. We all have our own priorities in life, design and publishing, so we all act accordingly.

As for your question on sales goals, here's some rough numbers just for comparison purposes:

• I'm comfortable and familiar with the Finnish rpg scene. I can expect to sell 200 copies of a game without undue marketing effort over a period of a couple of years, in Finnish. The best-selling Finnish game ever clocks in at around 700 copies over eight years, which is consummate with sales of foreign games this decade.
• A successful American indie title sold with the Forge array of marketing techniques sells several hundred copies per year at this time. This ranges from 300 (My Life with Master springs to mind, can't bother to check) to a 1000 (do I imagine, or did both Dogs and Primetime Adventures get here last year?) depending on the title and the year. Meanwhile, the essentially good but under-appreciated and under-marketed titles can go as low as a 100 copies per year or even lower. In both cases the time attrition factor seems to be rather minor (design-depending, it seems to me); a good game may expect anything from no change (or a small adjustment) to slightly increasing sales after the first year, except for those games that are quickly out-designed. The oldest successful titles of the current scene seem to still be selling well, albeit some have had new editions. Note that I'm discounting the indie titles that are sold via more traditional avenues; they clock more sales, generally speaking.
• Sales data is much more difficult to get outside the local scene, but my sources indicate that a traditional rpg product for a solid line may expect around 500 sold copies in average; these are source books and mid-range games, essentially. The flagship products apparently still sell thousands of copies, but I wouldn't hazard even the vague numbers I'm giving for the indie stuff.

The above numbers might all be horribly wrong, they're just impressions and what I remember from the sales graphs people publish now and then. Regardless, if I were publishing a mid-sized game myself for the international market, using my own skills at this point and being confident of the product, I'd be comfortable with printing around 500 copies or so, with the idea that I'd sell them in a year or two. I wouldn't go as high as 1000, unless I had a solid plan for distribution and somebody else doing sales for me; if my game couldn't be produced practically in shorter runs, I'd probably pass on producing it altogether at this point. Know your limitations, in other words.

Of course, all that talk of typical print runs and sales is rather meaningless in a generic context. The actually wise route is much more dependent on your personal goals, risk-affinity and such. Publishing experience alone makes a huge difference when you consider that a big part of my motivation in this is learning and triumphing through the practical challenges of book production and publishing; in that context it is natural that I work towards larger and larger projects, simply because the routine projects are not that exciting compared to trying out new things. For another person the situation is completely different.

[patrick80]

We need to discuss your publishing goals in more concrete terms. No need to discuss the content of the game if you're not comfortable, but there's plenty of nuances in why a person might publish a game. For example:
- Is it important to you to have the book in game stores because you associate game stores with importance, so it's an ego thing?
- Do you want to make plenty of money on the game?
- Do you want to work actively to market your game?
- Are you interested in the rigors and practicalities of publishing?
- Do you want to reach the people who would specifically enjoy and benefit from your game?
- Do you want permission to call yourself a game designer?
These questions and others like them are what determines the wise course for each individual. We all have our own priorities in life, design and publishing, so we all act accordingly.

Thanks for getting back to me. I worked for a small publisher of art books for two years and watched him have to do some serious dancing to get the things sold, but I got a taste for it and could see myself in a similar boat if an exciting opportunity came along. I'll answer your questions in order because they are all valid and do help in sorting my thoughts on it.

-I do see game stores as important, which isn't a knock to those doing pdf exclusively. As a matter of preference I think pdf's are unattractive and make my experience a little less whole. I can see past this for a great game and I think most people can, but for me print just makes it more full.

- I don't know if plenty of money is possible, but I have an entrepreneurial streak a mild wide and if there is a possibility of making money I am open to it.

- I do want to work to market it. If it turns out to be something I am truly proud of, I will gladly slap a price tag on it and scream from the mountaintops about it.

- I am interested in publishing. I have always thought of myself as a writer and was happy to take paychecks from other people, but increasingly I'd like to be writing those checks to myself.

- Yes. This is the part that really interests me most. Finding other people with the same specific interests within gaming is really exciting.

- Yeah, I guess. But it's pretty low on the list of motivations. I've been providing most of the copy and my partner has been hammering the game rules. Since I'm not ingrained in this indie rpg scene I'm not as interested in being recognized right now as I am about putting out a game I feel (even if I don't end up selling it at all) would be purchase-worthy.

500 sounds like an excellent starting goal. I'm a gambler by nature and would be willing to take a chance on that, provided I feel this thing is worth a turd at the end of the day.

I see some smaller companies swimming in the same game store waters as the big dudes that were big when I was a kid. Is this typically a stab at greatness that goes unrewarded and these companies would be just as well off doing POD? Or is this a viable way to start a business if you have the resources?

This is a very personal question for you and for anyone willing to answer: What keeps you from pushing your games to larger audiences? Do you feel your idea is too niche to sell on a larger platform? Do you have a commitment to the indie community and don't feel the need to go any larger? Is it cost-associated risks? Just not interested in playing that game?

[Eero Tuovinen]

If the smaller companies you mention are folks like Luke Crane (Burning Wheel) and Evil Hat Productions (Spirit of the Century), then my impression is that they are eminently satisfied with their game store -focused publishing strategy. I consider investing in game stores feasible if you want to be in game stores and move a lot of copies. This is not the case for nearly everybody when you consider the costs involved in working the system and discounts game stores necessitate. But if quick visibility works for you because of your priorities or the specific qualities of your product, then the game store is worthy of consideration. A typical reason to not be interested in game stores is that your game is something radically different from their usual fare (which is, despite the seemings, really rather quite narrow) and would just end up sitting on the shelves when neither the game store audience nor the workers would be interested in the product as a game.

As for the hurdles of pushing games to larger audiences, my take is that I'm simply too busy designing and not happy enough with my product. I could be arranging for an international edition of my zombie game to become reality right now, but in practice I've spent the fall months doing new game design and learning instead. To tell the truth, the practical issues like investment risks and promotional venues are secondary in the sense that I could overcome them with a bit of work if I was interested in pushing the publishing thing as a primary endeavor right now. The same holds for my local ambitions here in Finland; I'm interested in new mainstream audiences for roleplaying, but that interest has not so far been translated into committed action in that regard.

There is a balance between design and publishing a self-publisher needs to strike, and that balance is different for each individual. My sense is that perhaps most independent game designers are personally more invested in the design side of things, but they do have enough drive to want to publish their game and make it available. Not enough interest to aggressively find new markets or do lots of long-term marketing work, but interested enough to publish in the first place.

[Seth M. Drebitko]

  I would say honestly if your looking to get into stores your going to want to take a couple things into consideration.

1.   I have seen the pod prices getting very close to short run printing lately. By factoring in shipping costs from the “traditional” printer to yourself, storage, shipment to stores/distributors, you have created more work for yourself by having to handle the stock when the pod printer could have just mailed direct.
2.   Consistency is what’s going to kill you. If you can’t consistently get your books into stores following a schedule your going to have a hard time getting people to supply it. For example look at palladium, they have allot of books but their release schedule is not reliable and so you don’t see them as often as say d20 products that you can count on monthly. I would say in the beginning your going to want to maybe do things bi-annually, and then scale it up to a supplement every quarter once there is more support, but more importantly make sure the fans and stores can count on you. Even if you only put out say 1 book a year if they know that come September 15th it will be there you have put yourself at a higher priority than others.
3.   Gain traction through proven avenues. I have to say most people will buy a new authors book, if there are some articles I have read in established magazines for example. Or maybe they did some work with another establisher author who I like. 

My suggestion (keep in mind this is just my suggestion) would be as follows:

1.   Start of with your core book a supplement or two, and have an annual supplement deal set up.
2.   Plan to do at least one small out of company writing project to get “traction” and name branding
3.   Sign up for key20.com services and get a discount on your Avalon POD services!
4.   Be consistent because if your not people will not keep interest with so many other options out there.

Regards, Seth
(Please keep in mind its all just suggestions)

[patrick80]

Thanks guys. I honestly wasn't very familiar with Burning Wheel until your post, but having spent the better half of the day reading all about it, I can say it's the closest in mechanics to what I've been working on. My world idea is a bit more limiting than what Mr. Crane has going on, but I feel it's got a similar level accessibility or appeal.

It's still a long way off, but when the time comes to make a decision- POD looks like a worthwhile approach and I'll have to weigh it against a short run.

[xenopulse]

Here's my personal experience.

We published Beast Hunters in March this year. Well, actually, we started preorders in March and got our print run belatedly in April. We wanted to have an initial run of 100 copies so that we could fulfill preorders (30 copies) and take them to conventions, plus send out review copies. We've got 45 copies left of that pile, I think.

We signed up with lulu.com to be able to do POD. We've sold a few dozen copies that way, without any more investment from us (after paying for art and layout).

We didn't really want, initially, to spend the money for a short print run. But Lulu made it somewhat affordable to print 50 books and send them to Indie Press Revolution. IPR then sells them both to customers directly and to retailers at a discount. We had to supply a second run of 100 hardcopies a couple of months back. IPR has sold 103 hardcopies and 26 PDF copies of Beast Hunters so far. Out of those, a bit less than half of the hardcopies went to retailers. So we got our game into stores and on shelves at the same time as it's getting directly into customers' hands. Recently, several people have emailed me telling me they've picked it up at their FLGS, which is really neat. Less money per book for us, but more reinforcement of the indie market among retailers. IPR also takes the books to conventions like Origins and GenCon, where they've sold a dozen or two copies of BH, I think.

So if you want to get your book into stores as well as to customers, I'd suggest a small run, and teaming up with a good company like that. IPR is my favorite venue, but Key20 was mentioned and is an option as well.

Overall, now in its 10th month, Beast Hunters sales approach 200. We're happy with that; it's about the mid-range of indie games, I'd think. There are front runners that sell twice as much, easily (like Polaris, Agon or DitV), and the occasional breakout hit like Spirit of the Century selling over 2,000 in the first year (see Fred Hicks' LJ for exact sales numbers: drivingblind.livejournal.com). There are also many games that sell fewer copies.

Did you have any other particular questions? I've got some more actual numbers listed in the Beast Hunters: First Six Months thread.

[patrick80]

you know, I'm talking about shooting for 500 as a goal, but I have to say, I would be very proud to have 200 like you currently have. That's a great number of people enjoying your work.

How often do books go from POD to short runs on account of demand? Do you think they often reach market saturation (whatever that may be, 200, 400, 1,000) in the POD stage and are difficult to put in a store at that point?

What was your background in gaming prior to releasing your book which has done 200? I don't mean what were you into, I mean were you a visible personality within the community and had you done other work people were aware of?

[iago]

you know, I'm talking about shooting for 500 as a goal, but I have to say, I would be very proud to have 200 like you currently have. That's a great number of people enjoying your work.

500 can be pretty ambitious for a first time out.  I'm not saying it can't be done -- it certainly can -- but you can get a decent POD short-run printing through something like Lightning Source or Lulu for only 100-200 copies initially and be out a lot less money if that turns out to be the size of your reach. 

When you say 500, keep in mind that (I believe Vincent has said) Dogs in the Vineyard has sold 700 copies a year fairly consistently, and that's one of the, uh, big dogs of the set.  500's pretty comparable to the concept of a "big name indie", though there's a lot of play around that figure.

Showing up as something of an unknown *can* be an obstacle here (though clearly it's an obstacle that is occasionally cleared); I'm just recommending setting your expectations (and budget) at a managable level.

[Eero Tuovinen]

On a second read through the thread, I concur with Fred in his suggestion that a smaller printing is probably a good idea. You (Patrick) picked the figure of 500 copies from my posting, I think, but what I meant to say was that 500 copies would be suitable for me, if I was to go ahead with publishing an English version of my game. I have the experience, contacts and committed confidence to not mess that up with the particular game I have here, so I'm comfortable with that. For a first-timer who is unsure of his marketing contacts towards his target audience doing POD or a minimal short-run printing (200 copies or even a bit under is practical in this regard) is eminently sensible. Impossible to say which end of the range would be more appropriate for you; the little things in your postings seem to imply that you have a pretty traditional game targeted at traditional audiences, which is pretty different from my own audience profiles, and requires a different marketing approach, I find.

Then again, if your game is something like Burning Wheel (to pick a great traditional rpg sold with indie techniques), then a large 500 copy printing with a front-loaded marketing strategy wouldn't perhaps be the stupidest thing ever, even for a first-time designer. There are some historical reasons why that kind of thing works better for a traditional-minded game than an experimental one, which can be discussed if they're relevant for your situation. (The simplest one of these factors is that if your game has the traditional parameters, it fits more reasonably in the game stores, and may thus be moved in larger volumes than a strangely formatted, small and non-standard game that does not fit into a typical genre.) But it all goes to show that we don't really know nearly enough to say what would be wise for you and what wouldn't; I wouldn't go into giving any more exact suggestions for your particular situation without looking over your project. We get all kinds of games here, and often enough I end up recommending a complete reworking or whatever - even a hundred copies of a bad game are too many. I'm of course not saying that your game is bad, but you as a publisher need to have a clear and realistic idea of your target audience before making any kind of decisions about going further.

[xenopulse]

What was your background in gaming prior to releasing your book which has done 200? I don't mean what were you into, I mean were you a visible personality within the community and had you done other work people were aware of?

I was a participant in Forge discussions. Didn't have a renowned theory blog, my own site, previous published designs, or whatnot. One thing I did do was to post the first draft of the game here. That stirred up a bunch of interest. And from then on, I sometimes posted about the game. For example, I had the idea that we would use beast tattoos in the book with the beast listings instead of drawn images like a monster manual, for example. So I posted and asked for feedback. That created more awareness of the game and its cool tattoos

I even had one person who preordered the game write me and tell me that he'd been playing the draft version from the Forge and enjoyed it a lot, so that was great to hear.

I also was lucky to get Fred Hicks (iago above) to do the layout for us. Fred is not only great at doing layouts, he's also a marketing machine, and he's a highly visible personality. So having him post about the game a few times before it came out surely helped quite a bit.

[patrick80]

Thanks again. As I get more comfortable with what I've made I'll probably post a blog and ask people to give me some feedback. Another question that likely deserves its own thread: How close is too close? In some fields borrowing is standard. In others it's highly disrespectful. If I have mechanics ideas that are similar to someone else's, how do you recommend I navigate that situation? I think it's foolish to change something for the sake of making it different, but at the same time I don't want to abuse someone else's intellectual space.

[Eero Tuovinen]

That question indeed deserves its own thread, and it has had those. The short answer is that while you are not legally obligated to respect the originality of game design work, morally the community expects (and here I'm saying "community" when I can ultimately only speak for myself) that you acknowledge your sources. The common way of doing that nowadays is to include influential designers and games in your bibliography or foreword alongside whatever other works you've referenced when making the game. Solid references also help research your design more comprehensively in the years to come, so it's to your own benefit as well.

Even acknowledgment doesn't of course ensure that you've worked in good faith to create an original work with reasonable creativity, but that's pretty much your own business as an artist anyway. You'll know yourself if you're unhappy with the craft you've brought into a game you create. I can't off-hand name any flagrant trespasses along these lines in this community, so I don't have the faintest idea what we'd do if somebody actually did large-scale plagiarizing. Probably a lot of shouting and somebody losing his reputation, I'd imagine. I can't think of something like that happening accidentally, though; in the cases where the designer has been uncertain, in my experience they're pretty good at asking for permission from the creator of the original work they're emulating.

(Note that I don't want to belittle the creative trespassing we get now and then; having somebody else get all inspired by your own work, emulating it in good faith and perhaps even publishing a game before you get yours done is not a nice feeling. It's also not anybody's "fault", and we as adults are fully capable of handling the situation with dignity. It is not a crime to get inspired by somebody else, even if it might feel threatening for the original designer.)

Please note that the above concerns only situations where designers work in close cooperation and under each other's influence and actually have a professional relationship between them. If you have some ideas in your game that just happen to be similar to what somebody else has in theirs, that's hardly a problem for anybody. I would still mention the other work to clarify that I am aware of the other game's existence, but that's just for research purposes and not because I would need to apologize for reinventing the wheel.

So, to sum it up: don't change anything just because somebody else is doing things the same way. Rather, learn from others and try to make the best game you can. If somebody influences your design, acknowledge it freely and honor both them and yourself by doing so.