Roleplaying research survey

[bookworm_85]

Hello.  Myself and a group of friends are working on writing a roleplaying game system.  As part of this, we've decided to conduct some research to see what roleplayers are looking for in a game, what people think the biggest flaws in current systems are, etc.  If you're interested in filling in a quick survey, please hop over to our website http://www.geocities.com/loftofdoom/thesurvey.html. Thanks for your help.

[Eero Tuovinen]

You wouldn't be looking for critical commentary on your survey, perchance? Or other discussion of your game plan?

I answered the questionnaire, but I have to say that the answers are supremely confusing, considering the weirdness of the questions. Hopefully it won't make anybody do anything they'll regret later. Also, I only have a vague impression of the current value of the British pound, so having those price categories in euros and dollars as well would be good.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Eero,

Since the Forge is a discussion site, then whatever they posted here, is subject to critique. It's just fine if people who check out the survey provide feedback. Whether the authors use it or not is up to them.

Best, Ron

[Larry L.]

Hi "bookworm,"

Do you have a name, or are you just a spambot? I'm really not sure if my response will be read and considered by a real person, or if you have presumed our only value to you is as a source of mindless data.

It would be sad if you weren't paying attention to the replies you get here. You have stumbled across a resource here, at the Forge, which will be vastly more useful in reaching your stated goals than any amateurishly-constructed market survey.

[matthijs]

Hi, bookworm_85!

From your questionnaire it looks like you might not have followed recent developments in the tabletop role-playing scene. Are you aware of the sort of games that are carried by for instance the Indie Press Revolution, and created by people on this board? I suggest to you that the best research you can do is to play some of these games, and talk to some of the people at this forum about your business plan, before you publish anything.

[Eero Tuovinen]

Throttle it down a bit, eh guys? Bookworm is posting in the correct subforum, writes courteously, has not broken any forum rules and, as far as I can see, deserves no spite. Playing IPR games is not the only road to happiness in this world, and it seems obvious to me that this is no work of a spambot, but of somebody who really wants to make a game and approachs it from the viewpoint of doing research. Have a little faith.

That said, I'm not so sure that I'm motivated to take potshots at somebody's questionnaire or design assumptions if they're not themselves oriented towards having a dialogue about it. For all I know the Loft of Doom has things well in hand, even if the survey does hint at some degree of cluelessness.

Although, while I might object to the tone, I do agree with Matthijs on the substance: it probably wouldn't hurt if Bookworm engaged in a bit of a dialogue about his game publishing plans on the Publishing forum. Perhaps such a dialogue could be useful for the Loft.

[matthijs]

Huh? Eero, I have _no_ idea why you have trouble with my tone. Something must have disappeared along the way from here to there. As you well know, a lot of first-time publishers have made some grievous mistakes based on wrongful assumptions about the market & the state of gaming, and I was trying to find out whether bookworm_85 is making an informed decision before investing lots of money and time.

[Eero Tuovinen]

Well, it's good if you find nothing offensive in it. I could imagine that I would be annoyed if I came to a random internet community and were told that my best course (as opposed to one possibility), for my own business and craft, would be to research the local design culture landscape. Not that research ever hurt anybody, but there are other ways to proceed towards a state of grace than playing Forge games.

But that topic's ultimately internet dross; let's see if Bookworm returns to us at some point and makes this topic go somewhere.

[bookworm_85]

Hi (Sorry I've not been able to reply sooner).  First of all thanks for your comments so far, I promise that I will take them on board (for example, I'll try and get the currency question improved within a day or so).  Apologies if the questions are a bit amateurish, I've not had much experience at writing this sort of thing, and any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I'll quickly explain what we're trying to do with our project.  We're a group of role-players in the UK (most of us are quite new to the game), who enjoy playing but found that none of the systems that we'd heard of and played (i.e. the big players in the industry- D20, world of darkness etc) had exactly what we were looking for in a game.  Frustrated by this, we decided that we'd have a go at writing our own system and settings (primarily just for our own entertainment, but we feel that it would be great if we could get it published and make a bit of a business out of it).  At this point we started talking about a few ideas, but we decided that it would be a sensible move to try and do a bit of market research first, before we spend too much time on it.  We did a few web searches and found a couple of RPG forums, so we quickly threw together a survey and I posted a link.
Having since read more about the forge, I can see that (1) we are way behind you guys, and their is a whole web community based around designing a playing good RPGs, and (2) that the forge is therefore a very rich source of information from people who not only have given thought to how to make good games, but have been doing so for years.

So, with this in mind, we plan to read the boards here for a bit and bring ourselves up to date with the whole concept of indie games.  If any of you guys could point us in the direction of a summary of these developments, it would be very helpful.
Thanks for your patience.

[David Artman]

I found this point to be a bit... telling? ...contradictory?

...who enjoy playing but found that none of the systems that we'd heard of and played (i.e. the big players in the industry- D20, world of darkness etc) had exactly what we were looking for in a game.
...but we decided that it would be a sensible move to try and do a bit of market research first, before we spend too much time on it.

So, somehow, you went from "let's make a game that's perfect for us" to "let's make a game that will meld random market data into a potentially popular product." Care to talk a bit about that? In particular, why do you care what others think, if you're making a game for your own group? Put another way, what if your market data drives you to make a game that, in the end, you think sucks for your group? Will you still make it?

I'm not hammering; do not read a critical tone. I'm just thinking your method is directly at odds with your motivation; or your motivation has changed, in which case you will (probably) find yourself making a d20 mod of some kind, presuming that your market data reflects popular opinion and that you accurately sample the spectrum of RPG buyers.

I can also concur with those above who feel that some of the survey is a bit odd. For instance, I should have been able to say "I'd pay any amount for a book, if I could perceive the quality and worth" but I couldn't. And asking about "what new genre" would I like to see? Hell, you'd set the literary world on fire--never mind the mere RPG market--if you managed to come up with ANY new genre! Even a non-derivative setting would be smoking hot, for players in any system (that supports engaging in setting, that is).

Anyhow... you've got a start with your survey; I hope you don't end there (or, if you return to your originally stated, personal motives, that you scrap it).
HTH;
David

[Eero Tuovinen]

Welcome to the Forge, Bookworm! If you don't mind telling us your real name, I'd love to be able to use that when referring to you; it's something of a habit in these parts.

As you asked about the best way to get familiar with the local culture of roleplaying game design and publishing, I have to say that reading the forums with comprehensive curiousity and checking out the games are the best ones. The games are ultimately where it's at, so any theoretical discussion of publishing or design will ultimately come back to that. I'd be happy to recommend some titles if you tell us more about your interests in terms of rpg mechanics and settings. Other than that, we need to know more about where you're currently at in terms of rpg culture and interests before recommending any specific reading; there's so much of it, ranging from discussions of guerrilla marketing to extremely abstract behaviorist rpg theory, that there's no way to recommend any singular sources that would feel relevant and useful for you right now.

Also, as a more immediate recommendation: Collective Endeavour is the British offspring of the Forge, focused on the British community of indie rpg designers as a community of design and something of a publishing co-operative. I don't recommend CE as a replacement for the Forge, but as a supplement; great people, great games and it's much easier to meet them and see for yourself what they're about. I personally find that the greatest thing about the Forge during its brief existence has been the community of like-minded rpg hobbyists and designers, so I'm very enthusiastic about Collective Endeavour as well.

[M. J. Young]

I'm more theory-oriented in my design efforts, and the sort of person who abstracts and understands things from the abstract, so I'm going to offer something a bit different to help. The theory discussions here were fruitful for quite a while, and at the request of the staff at Places to Go, People to Be (an excellent RPG e-zine) I put together a sort of introductory/explanatory summary of a lot of what had been developed here. The series is called Theory 101, and the three parts are:

• System and the Shared Imagined Space talks about the way role playing games work as a sort of "conversation with rules", a structured social interaction that creates an agreed setting and sequence of events; it's very much the core of how these things achieve what they do. It also covers stance, the relationship between player and character.
• The Impossible Thing Before Breakfast looks at the resolution of the idea that the referee controls the story but the players control all the actions of all the principle characters in the story; it examines the major approaches to running a game used by referees, and how players are expected to interact with each.
• Creative Agenda hits what for some is the big deal with "Forge Theory", the issues of Gamism, Narrativism, and Simulationism; it puts these into the focus of "what we are doing that is fun", and explains how they relate and conflict. It also wraps up the series with some references.

I must say that little in those articles is original with me; it is mostly my effort to summarize the contributions of many on this site and at Gaming Outpost over many years, and is fundamentally based on the pioneering work of Ron Edwards. I think the articles make that clear themselves, but I did not want to seem as if I were taking credit for what is not mine.

I hope these help.

--M. J. Young