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Hi all.  In a previous thread, a few questions were asked about http://www.goldenpillarpublishing.com>Golden Pillar Publishing and I just wanted to relay my experience with them so far.  First off, this is not an ad or promotional gimmick by GPP or Gold Rush Games (their sister company)---we used GPP for http://dreamwalkerrpg.home.att.net>Dreamwalker: Roleplaying in the Land of Dreams and are quite pleased with the result.

GPP is basically a "vanity press" print-on-demand publisher.  You pay them to lay out your game, set you up with ISBN numbers and list your game with online sites like Amazon.com, Books A'Million.com and Barnes and Noble (.com).  You have to do your own marketing (press releases, etc.), but the actual ordering and selling of the game is handled by their distributors.  

The President of GPP is Mark Arsenault and I can't say enough good things about working with him.  He did the layout for Dreamwalker and gave us every opportunity to make changes and additions to the text.  Mark was a key reason why we chose GPP over other POD services.  For one thing, he has a ton of RPG-related credits to his name and so he knows what an RPG is supposed to look like (I always like to refer to the long, extended blank stare we got from a local printer when we asked about laying out tables and charts (for weapons, vehicles, etc.).  

Anyway once we made changes and approved the proofs (both PDF and hard copy), Dreamwalker went to print and POW! We had our very own book.  :)


Dollars and Cents

I suppose the bottom line is probably more interesting to would-be publishers. I'm not sure how in-depth you guys like to go into costs but I will list ours (more or less) since GPP gives the formula for calculating costs on their website.  

For $1500 (GPP's Silver Package), we got a 152 page, 8.25/11", glossy soft cover book.  They are currently unable to do hardback books at this size.  Production Cost is calculated at a base $1.30 plus an additional $.018 per page.  For Dreamwalker, this came to a total of just over $4.00 per book.  

The retail price was set at $24.95 (although every online bookseller is offering it for much less) so I'll just round this off to $25.00.  Now as I understand it, retailers (and distributors?) buy the books at a 60% mark down from the SRP which means they buy this book for $10.00.  

With the GPP Silver Package we keep 80% of all profits and by profits I mean (cover price - retailer purchase price - production cost = profit).  

For Dreamwalker, this comes out to about $4.75 per book that we keep.  This means that we would have to sell 315 copies of Dreamwalker to break even.  

I have a quote from a traditional printer stating that a print run of 1000, 6x9" books, at 160 pages costs $1,950.  They were somewhat vague on including images and for some reason, they did not send me a quote on the 8.5x11" book like I had asked but I assume that the price would be slightly higher.  

Even so, at this cost, using the same retailer purchasing/production cost formula, you would get about an $8 profit from each book sale which means you would only have to sell about 240 books to break even.  But keep in mind, you would have to purchase your own ISBN number (if you wanted your books to be available to booksellers), register your copyright (optional) and have to handle all ordering, sales and shipping yourself, as well as marketing, all of which could add to your expenses.

But then again, you do have 1000 books, in hand, for your money as compared to 24 (as per Silver Package). Of course you also have to store and take care of these books and although this does not sound difficult I have heard that it can be a real pain.

Note: I am comparing print costs here and not touching on PDF's because that was not an option for Dreamwalker.  We wanted our core rulebook to be something more solid, although we might very well go the PDF route with our supplements (if any of us ever figure our way around Adobe).

So what am I trying to say here?  Well, nothing actually.  I'm not trying to push one type of publishing method over another, I just wanted to give you guys my own personal experience with GPP.  

We couldn't have asked for a better arrangement.  None of us had/have any skills with computer layout and design, and none of us wanted all of the commercial hassles that come from ordering, selling, shipping, etc.  From my reading here, I understand that many of you look forward to and even enjoy this part of the process but we did not.

We paid GPP for the Silver Package and they put together a solid book that we can flip through and carry around and show off (and we've done plenty of that!).  :)

Here is a link to an http://trio.rpg.net/news+reviews/columns/soap03jul01.html>article on RPGnet talking about various POD and vanity press publishers.  (sorry in advance if this is against Forge policy).  

I really hope I have my numbers and my understanding of the retail process right and I also hope this helps someone out in the future.    

Pete

All great stuff Pete.  Could I ask if you'd be willing to drop in from time to time and break out your sales figures, so we have an idea of how long it tokes to break even.

Hi Pete,

First, many thanks for all the valuable data. I think everyone here needs all the from-the-trenches feedback we can get. Mark Arsenault does indeed have a good name in the RPG biz, and I'm glad he's making this available.

Couple small points ...

1) RPG.net references are welcome here. There is no anti-RPG.net policy or ban at the Forge. (Personal commentary re: individual posters is not a matter of policy; Clinton and I can't control that.)

2) The 60%-off from cover price that distributors pay is called "the discount" in the biz. (That's different from the notion of a "sale discount," ie, markoff on cover price to a customer, which is a different animal.) The usual value for a retailer is 40%. Thus if a distributor pays you $10 per copy for the book, a retailer is paying the distributor $15 for it, and then the customer at the counter pays $25.

Not everyone follows this exact pattern. Both Gamers Workshop and WotC have very interesting policies which simultaneously entice and aggravate retailers. My discount, via Tundra Sales Organization, is %50 regardless of retailer/distributor status. So you should look at some of the variants too.

3) I don't think anyone knows right now whether print-on-demand or print-'em-all-now works better. Either way, you have paid X and have received Y so far. Your own experience with this is going to continue to provide valuable information about this issue.

Congratulations on the long haul so far.

Best,
Ron

Quote
 Valamir
                  Posted: 19 Jun 2002 02:43    Post subject:


                 All great stuff Pete. Could I ask if you'd be willing to drop in from time to time and break out
                 your sales figures, so we have an idea of how long it tokes to break even.

Hi Valamir.  I would be more than happy to share this info with you guys, especially the break even part, and the sooner, the better.  :)

Quote
 Ron Edwards
                  Posted: 19 Jun 2002 02:49    Post subject:

                 Hi Pete,

                 First, many thanks for all the valuable data. I think everyone here needs all the
                 from-the-trenches feedback we can get. Mark Arsenault does indeed have a good name in the
                 RPG biz, and I'm glad he's making this available.

                 Couple small points ...

                 1) RPG.net references are welcome here. There is no anti-RPG.net policy or ban at the Forge.
                 (Personal commentary re: individual posters is not a matter of policy; Clinton and I can't
                 control that.)

OK, thanks.  I didn't think there was any sort of bias, but I just wanted to be sure.

Quote
                 2) The 60%-off from cover price that distributors pay is called "the discount" in the biz. (That's
                 different from the notion of a "sale discount," ie, markoff on cover price to a customer, which is
                 a different animal.) The usual value for a retailer is 40%. Thus if a distributor pays you $10 per
                 copy for the book, a retailer is paying the distributor $15 for it, and then the customer at the
                 counter pays $25.

                 Not everyone follows this exact pattern. Both Gamers Workshop and WotC have very
                 interesting policies which simultaneously entice and aggravate retailers. My discount, via Tundra
                 Sales Organization, is %50 regardless of retailer/distributor status. So you should look at some
                 of the variants too.

I certainly will.  

Quote

                 3) I don't think anyone knows right now whether print-on-demand or print-'em-all-now works
                 better. Either way, you have paid X and have received Y so far. Your own experience with this
                 is going to continue to provide valuable information about this issue.

Ha!  POD vs. PAN (if that's a new Ron-ism, I hope it sticks.)

Quote
                 Congratulations on the long haul so far.

                 Best,
                 Ron

What?  You mean we're not finished?!  :)

Seriously, thank you very much and I hope this information helps someone.

Oh, and one other thing I forgot to mention was that after your book is finished, you can go back and order more copies for yourself at the production cost + Shipping and Handling.  This seems very useful for conventions and such.   In this case, you get to keep all profits from book sales which is a considerable difference.  In the example above---c. $21 per book minus the total shipping cost.    


Pete

I posted to RPGnet asking about experiences with GPP, and I was directed here.

First off, I am encouraged by your story; I wanted to be sure their service worked as advertised before committing myself. However, I still have some questions (that I'll just copy from my RPGnet post):

1: If using another printer, would I still need to use another company for order fulfillment, etc. (like Wizard's Attic), and how would that affect profits?
2: If I use GPP, can my game appear under my own company's name in catalogs, or will it always be listed with other GPP products?
3: Again, most importantly, is using GPP for printing and order fulfillment a good idea for a startup game company that wants to build its own brand recognition?

And also, a new (multipart) question:
4: How much control did you have over the final appearance of your book? Could you put in sidebars or textboxes if you wanted to? Could you select a page border, or put in a background pattern (like for tables and textboxes)? Which layout elements did you get as part of the package, and which cost extra?

Hi Clavdivs, welcome to The Forge.

Just had to mention that I love your Blues Brothers quote. One of my favorites.

Hope you find what you came for.

Mike

Hi,

I haven't consumated using GPP yet, but have purchased the right to do so (via the GIDFA auction).  That said, since RPGnet directed me here...

>1: If using another printer, would I still need to use another company for order fulfillment, etc. (like Wizard's Attic), and how would that affect profits?

Fulfillment houses take from 10-25%, depending on whether they simply fulfil, or also add in some marketing.  You don't _need_ to use fulfillment, then again you don't need to use GPP.  GPP, using POD, does help with cash flow though (as others pointed out).

GPP, Wizard's Attic, etc all operate the same way.  They save you time in 2 forms, in return for a share of the percentage.

They save you time in getting your work into the retailer's hands.  And they save you time in learning _how_ to get your product into the retailer's hands.  This last bit is a hidden cost for those who go it alone-- it's really a pain operating a gaming business solo or with just 1 partner.

I think folks are insane to not use a fulfillment house or GPP... then again, I think folks are insane to not use an accountant, paid editor, etc.  Just because you can start a game publishing company on a shoestring using just your own labor, doesn't mean it's a good idea.  Every half-day that you save on grunt work (by outsourcing) is a half day you can use for guerilla marketing and for creation.

Because marketing and creation are the 2 items that you really _are_ the best choice for.   And if you can pay someone a percentage (rather than cash up front) to do the rest, all the better!

>3: Again, most importantly, is using GPP for printing and order fulfillment a good idea for a startup game company that wants to build its own brand recognition?

I think so, because your brand will be tied with your product, not your Gamers Quarterly Retailer listing or your SKU.  Outside of Usenet, most gamers don't really track where non-top-tier products come from.

I mean, there are folks who buy only RIFTS/Palladium, or only WotC, or only White Wolf.  Past that, folks tend to go for game lines (which often shuffle across different companies-- who owns Talislanta this week?) or for creators ("hey, a new Robin Laws game").  At best, a strongly branded publisher like Atlas can get a bit of an extra push for new items-- but really, Ars Magica fans would buy AM stuff regardless of the publisher, if it was good.

So your brand likely won't be your corporation/publisher, rather, I recommend focusing on the Game Line as the brand.  The Game Line itself is then more portable (to other publishers, to be acquired), and also tied more closely to the tangible product in their hands (which makes branding easier).

Good luck!
Sandy
sandy@rpg.net

Hi CLAVDIVS,

Sorry for the delay in getting back.  Sandy addressed points 1-3 pretty well---I would have said "I don't know" for the most part.  I have no idea about brand recognition, the appearance of catalog listings or the viability of fulfillment houses.  That's part of the reason I went with GPP---there was very minimal startup cost/effort.  I'm basically Joe Schmo (actually we're 3 Joe Schmos) with a game and a few dollars that we spent on GPP and are happy with the result.

I do believe that GPP offers a layout and design package that you could take to your own printer.  


     

Quote4: How much control did you have over the final appearance of your book? Could you put in
                 sidebars or textboxes if you wanted to? Could you select a page border, or put in a background
                 pattern (like for tables and textboxes)? Which layout elements did you get as part of the
                 package, and which cost extra?

We had total control over the final appearance of the book although we deferred to Mark's artistic judgement in many cases as he has a better knowledge of layout and design than we do.  Dreamwalker has a sidebar, many charts and tables and boxed text which as far as I know are included in the cost (we weren't charged extra for these additions).  We were sent several PDF proofs and even a hard copy to approve before the final print (and dammit, we still missed a few stupid little things).

Anyway, if you have any service-based questions, I would strongly urge you to email GPP directly.  They are always friendly and usually respond within a few days to any queries.  

Good luck with your game,

Pete