Shadowmen system II (split)

[signoftheserpent]

A new day and a fresh look at one of my old ideas (playing the matrix online has reinvigorated my interest).

In the game characters will experience a rollercoaster ride of activity. As heroes they will be pushed from a state of relaxed awareness to the edge of exhaustion. This state is actively measured in the game by the character's Momentum track set in two halves of numbers; the first half is known as the character's Edge – his heightening state of alertness as fuelled by his rising adrenaline – this starts at 1 and rises to 5. The second half is known as Grit – the character's decreasing level of alertness and increased tiredness (the effects of prolonged adrenaline and activity) – is the inverse of the Edge portion, starting at 5 and decreasing to 1. This then supposes a natural progression one way along the track, from left to right (i.e. starting at Edge 1).

If a player moves from Grit 1 to the right (which is technically not possible), he is knocked out, KO'd in game terms, and must sit out the remainder of the scene or until his condition is tended to. If a player moves from Edge 1 to the left he remains there, but must remove 1 State (these are conditions affecting the character usually for the worse), but only where applicable. States have their own rules affecting the character's Momentum.
Every action has two pools of dice: one based on the characters active stat and another called the Struggle pool, set by the difficulty for the action. From the struggle pool the character subtracts his current Momentum. If that leaves a surplus of stat dice the difference alone sets the number of successes without any need to actually roll, otherwise both pools are rolled simultaneously (all players need is a means to identify which dice belonged where).

Each even rolled from the stat pool creates 1 success, but each odd rolled from the struggle pool removes 1 success. However the GM is at liberty to forego the removal of one success and my instead increase his personal Threat pool by 1 (he may do this multiple times within an action). Conversely the GM may add from his threat level to convert one struggle die to an odd, up to a limit set by the active Edge, if present. Threat points allow the GM to activate extra powers on antagonists and make situations thus more difficult.

When a player fails an action, he increases his momentum – i.e. he moves 1 space to the right. When a player succeeds at an action he must move it likewise but he may move it to the right or the left. Thus Momentum also serves to measure the character's current state of health/activity.

[signoftheserpent]

Stat pool should be (stat + Momentum).

[kouato_terra]

Do the characters roll the struggle dice, or does the GM.  If the players roll the struggle dice and you compare odds and evens, it could work out.  But if the GM rolls the struggle dice I would suggest counting his evens too, instead of odd.  If you are looking for simple (i.e. intuitive) resolution I would suggest counting 4,5,6 as success, instead of evens. Higher being better is intuitive.  I would also suggest that what ever you count for the players as success (evens, or highs) count the same things for the GM it will be much easier compare results.

[signoftheserpent]

Sorry not to answer, but I think I'm going to revamp it. This seems, on closer inspection, rather more convoluted than is perhaps required.

[Ron Edwards]

The above posts were split from the older thread Shadowmen system ideas. We can carry on the discussion here.

Best, Ron

[Ken]

Hi-

The split thread was created while I was composing my thoughts. I didn't see it until I posted, so I'm going to add them here.

Sorry not to answer, but I think I'm going to revamp it. This seems, on closer inspection, rather more convoluted than is perhaps required.

While you're thinking, I had some thoughts on possible directions for changes here:

Maybe have your pool equal the stat at hand, counting each die with a result equal to or less than your current momentum score as a success. If you have as many successes as your current momentum (plus succeed at your action) then you can advance up the scale as you wish: if you don't get as many successes as your current momentum rating you start to slide towards exhaustion.

This would favor the character with high scores since everything is rated 1-5 only; someone with a max stat could have a chance of keeping their edge at 5 for any length of time. The cool thing is that everyone would get to the top of the momentum scale, but less competent characters would slide off of it faster. This also allows for momentum to effect the chances of success without adding a lot of extra dice and math.

I don't know if this interferes with other aspects of your game, but hope maybe this inspires you in the right direction. Thoughts?

Take care,

Ken

[signoftheserpent]

I was thinking of changing the scale, and having Momentum just work from high to low and using it as the dice pool with the stat value as the target number. If Momentum works from 1-5 and stats are rated to 10 then the dice pool can be made frm d10's.

On reflection, the original idea is somewhat convoluted.

[signoftheserpent]

I have replaced Momentum with a pool called Grit which is, tentatively, equal to the sum of the highest and lowest stats.

System:
To perform an action make a dice roll with up to three dice pools including the stat pool. Each result of an even from the combined Grit+stat pool generates a success. From that subtract any number of odds rolled on the Struggle dice. Struggle dice cannot produce successes. Basic success is achieved if the difference is at least positive (i.e. one success minimum).
These dice should be rolled together, but each pool must be identifiable for the purpose they serve. Stat dice determine whether the character has basically failed or succeeded. Grit dice represent an exertion of effort that can aid in this but at a cost, while Struggle dice represent fundamentally the difficulty (the player always rolls at least as many equal to the task's difficulty) and also the weight of his physiological condition in performing.

Grit:
Characters have a pool of Grit which, among other things, measures their ability to function. When a player loses all his Grit (or spends it all) he gains the Stress state, and again each time he incurs a loss while at 1 or less Grit.
Players can spend Grit to add to their dice pool when performing actions. However if more odds show up on the Grit dice (which must be identifiable thus) the player acquires the Stress State. This is in addition to the expenditure of Grit. This is regardless of the outcome of the action. If there is a tie for the number of odds between dice pools, then Grit dice win out and the player acquires an instance of Stress.

States:
States simply attach as descriptors for the purpose of role-playing. States should be single words that describe a deleterious condition under which the character is suffering. States are do not combine and coalesce: two gunshots, for example, do not become one major gunshot. The character simply has two states, both gunshots.
Some states may not co exist in such a way and thus the GM can simply rule that either a different state applies or the character simply loses a point of Grit. For example a character cannot feasibly have two colds, and neither (for simplicity's sake) does that upgrade to a more serious cold – though the GM may apply another state called Pneumonia for instance.
When a character receives a state the GM decides whether to apply a 1 2 or 3 point Grit loss to that character depending on the State's severity. This loss is in addition to the aforementioned rule concerning Grit loss and the total number of accumulated states the character has at any time.
When a player who has any number of States performs an action he adds a number of Struggle dice, inaddition to his stat dice pool and any Grit being used. Again these dice must be uniquely identifiable. If the majority of odds shown come from the Struggle dice, the character is KO'd before he can act again. If there is a tie between dice pools then Stress takes precedence and the character is again KO'd..

Edge:
Characters can have Edges, particular knacks linked to stats to show exceptional aptitude within specific applications of the skills concerned. Each Edge has a value of its own, also rated from 1 to 5. When making a roll, the player can re roll any number of Struggle dice involved up to a number equal to the relevant Edge value. This of course can only be done on actions where the Edge is involved and thus considered active.

[signoftheserpent]

Revised:

System:
Actions are performed using action dice, a pool of which is formed from the relevant stat. When the player rolls, each even number generates successes; if the GM sees enough have been generated the action succeeds. However, if the player has some active States, he must convert as many action dice as he can into struggle dice up to the that number. Struggle dice work just like action dice, but must be identifiable as such. The only difference being that the character is KO'd if he ever rolls more odds on Struggle dice than he has successes (evens in total). Evens generate successes as before. Players never roll more struggle dice than they would action dice regardless of how many states they have, however they must subtract from their total number of successes a number equal to this surplus. If this leaves them with no successes the action fails, and if this causes the Struggle dice rule to kick in they are KO'd.

Grit:
Grit is a point pool that represents the character's inner fire and courage. Players can spend points to add action dice to their pool that cannot become Struggle dice (add grit dice after calculating the number of struggle dice to be rolled). However when a player acquires a State he loses a point of Grit, though there is no penalty for running out of Grit. These points replenish after a character rests or does something inspiring for example.

My concern here is that characters can get beat up till kingdom come, but will only show the effects (ie KO) if they fail to make a roll and get more odds on their struggle dice. SO if they  have to roll to search the interweb for some evidence and thus fail, they collapse. That does strike me as incongruous for some reason.

[Ken]

My concern here is that characters can get beat up till kingdom come, but will only show the effects (ie KO) if they fail to make a roll and get more odds on their struggle dice. SO if they  have to roll to search the interweb for some evidence and thus fail, they collapse. That does strike me as incongruous for some reason.

That does sound a little funny, but considering that a character can only have struggle dice when they are injured this makes a bit of sense; you never know when you are going to succumb to your injuries. Your example seems to be more on the dramatic side; character gets roughed up, they make it back to the office do some research and pass out with a drink in their hand. Sounds good to me.

When you're injured, I could see any type of exertion pushing a character over the edge. I kind of like that actually; it adds an uncertainty that you don't get in other rpgs. Other games let you operate until your Hit Point tank is empty, but here, you never know when your wounds are going to get the better of you. Dramatically, it strikes me at very Noir-ish. I'd roll with that.

Keep it up,

Ken

[signoftheserpent]

I have started to work on this again. Aren't I consistent.

The system, from above, I have clarified thus:

Actions are either tense or normal. Only tense actions make use of struggle dice. To succeed an action, the player must generate at least as many succeses as the target number. Successes are generated from even numbers rolled from dice pool built from the relevant stat score.

Struggle dice, when used, are rolled in a similar fashion, however they do not generate successes. Instead the player counts every odd result. Regardless of the outcome of the action, if the player rolls more odds here than successes he is KO'd after the action is completed. The number of Struggle dice rolled is equal to the character's current Fatigue level.

Fatigue starts at 0, which represents a hale and hearty state of being, and accrues, with no upper limit, as the player takes damage. Fatigue encompasses mental and physical trauma. Players can spend Grit points (and independent pool of points to beneift the character's actions) to reduce the number of Struggle dice that will be rolled. Fatigue can accrue without upper limit.

The line between tense and normal actions isn't intended to be strictly enforced; it's just a way of reinforcing common sense so that characters needn't KO while doing something simple and mundane and not dramatically appropriate.