Passages: a new "Christian" RPG

[SethCarmikle]

Alright guys.
My parents are the types that don't like table-top rpgs becouse of all the "satanic" influences in them, so i've come up with a solution.

I am working on a game called Passages, it is an open-ended, midevil based game similar to DnD in ideas, except for the fact that is has a major "God" aned Omnicron and 11 other "false" gods that the players can follow. We currently have 8 classes, 9 races, and a basic set of algorithims.

Most of the people I have explained this to have either thought it as a dumb idea, or just an add-on to DnD, but the idea is to create a DnD alternative for the christian community without taking out the experience that is created through it.

[Meguey]

Huh. Well, I think the idea of creating a new thing that doesn't scare away your folks is admirable. Also, there are a good handful of table-top rpgs that don't have the common D&D issues (magic-using, non-Christian gods, etc), so you might want to check some of them for ideas, at least. Capes and PrimeTime Adventures leap to mind.

Can you tell more about your game? What do you see as the major similarities to D&D, and where is it different? What sort of stories are you hoping to tell with this: long campaign-style games, with on-going characters that progress through levels, etc etc, as per D&D; shorter stories about how God acts in the life of the PCs, or how faith leads to blessings, or some similar more religious thing; mostly medieval, with knights and quests and the Grail and courtly love?

When I think of the idea of a Christian rpg, I think instantly of playing out Bible Stories, particularly Job and Lot and things like the loaves and fishes or the marriage at Canaan. There's a bunch of good stories in there.

[Larry L.]

Hi Seth. Welcome to the Forge!

So, funny story... so when I was a young twerp, my best friend came over and I broke out the old red box version of Dungeons & Dragons. We rolled him up a character, I whet my imagination on what kinds of challenges I could Dungeon Master up. It was gonna be great.

Then I didn't see him for the next two weeks or so. His parents, upon learning we were playing "Dungeons & Dragons," promptly banned him from hanging out with me. It was that satanic game, you know, that made everybody commit suicide, I heard it from a friend who saw a show based on a book... (Is it worth noting he also went through a parentally-encouraged "Christian rap" phase for a short time?)

So later on, we would just play the "Palladium Fantasy Role-Playing Game." Which was totally okay with friend's parents, because despite the lengthy list of demons and classes like "Diabolist," it was not called "Dungeons & Dragons" and thus was okay. Ah, memories.

Anyway...

It might help us to know a bit about your prior experiences with role-playing games. Have you played some Dungeons & Dragons on the sly? Are you still looking to get into role-playing, but haven't had the opportunity to do so?

There are a bunch of directions we could go in terms of advice, so let's find out a little more about what you're looking to do with this.

Are you just looking to play a game that plays like Dungeons & Dragons, but with the "occult" serial numbers filed off? It shouldn't be too hard to create some more appropriate classes, "spell" replacements, and what not, and straight-out swipe the basic D&D rules, and you could even publish that under the D20 or OGL licenses. This could be fun.

On the other hand, if you're willing to step outside the "fantasy" genre, there are tons of games already out there which don't have anything to do with the supernatural. Action/espionage, sci-fi, superheroes, western... there's literally too many games for me to list. We could try to narrow down what other stuff you might enjoy, if you like.

[Eero Tuovinen]

Hi Seth, welcome to the Forge.

I have just three questions:

• Are you aware that there already is a roleplaying game called Passages?
• Do you know a roleplaying game called Dragon Raid?
• How familiar are you with the d20 phenomenon?

Just asking out of innocent curiousity. Also: do you have something specific you'd like to discuss about your game? Do you want to know if we think it a dumb idea, too? (For the record, I don't. I think it's a swell idea.)

[Filip Luszczyk]

Welcome to The Forge, Seth.

First, are you familiar with Passages from, uh, Blue Devil Games?

Second, AFAIK there's already a substantial number of Christian role-playing games similar to D&D. These include, but are not limited to, Spiritual Warfare. Not being a Christian myself I have a trouble relating to them and to the accuracy of their representation of Christian values, but possibly what you seek is already out there. Or, at least, there's a large pool of good inspirations waiting for you.

As for your idea, what makes me wonder is why you include those "false" gods that the players can follow, and give the major "God" a special name? Although I may lack the proper understanding of your faith's values, this idea doesn't seem very monoteistic to me, and I have this gut feeling that its reception in Christian communities wouldn't be very enthusiastic, if only due to the first impression such presentation might create. Many of the "satanic games" accusations I've met with in my country (which is primarily Roman Catholic) were based on the presence of fantasy religions or other unacceptable philosophies or ideologies in the settings, never mind that it was pure fiction.

Possibly, a good starting point would be to find people who are open minded enough to the idea of RPGs in your community, explain them the basics of the play experience you want (e.g. exploration of dungeons, characters advancing by taking part in quests, collecting treasure, or whatever you have in mind when you say "DnD") and consult with them how to best fit this play experience into your system of values? However, "open minded" is the key part here - it might just as well be that you simply won't be able to come up with an alternative that would be acceptable in your specific community, and I think it's better to be prepared for such a possibility.

[SethCarmikle]

The ideas for this game are being created from the knowledge of Dnd From my two friends who haved played it and have the books and the knowledge of what I would like to derive from a table-top RPG. As far as similarities to Dnd the Class/Race/Monster/Dice Rolling/Character Sheets/Etc. are loosely based off of Dnd Since as of right now, this is the only RPG we officially have the rulebooks for.  It's differences occur within the major templates of the above mentioned similarities. For example, the races are, as of right now: Ragnall-a stuck up elven like society that thinks they are the rulers of the land, The Sylvan- another elven-like race that dwells and the forests and lives with nature, the kakanos- an Elvan race which lives in deep tunnels and are powerful beings  due to the threats of underground lives, the Eloan-the last of the elven-like races who dwell in tthe plains and love the night, Humans, The Bedross- a dwarven rock race that both smiths and mines but cannot use any sort of magic, The Pru- a short race which tends to stay away from most societies and prefers their communities, The Mero- a race of Bone-like covered creatures who are extremely adept at magic, and The Jolin- who have the ability to change their size at will and are normally nuisances. Other differences are that magic is called Manna, and is the Primary "life-force" (think the force from Starwars) only that is all comes from the gods, their are a total of 12 "gods", Omnicron- the creator of all and the "One true god", Kyros- the supposed Master of gods who wants to claim his rightful place from Omnicron, and the 10 other gods who make up the pantheon which are similar to what christians call "demons' or "sins".the stories are anything that the Gamemaster decides to use from short stories of small battles to large gradiose stories where charactors are trying to find their destiny in the will of their god. The world (Ea) is actuall similar to our own and we are working on a "bible" which has the history of it made from the stories from the actual bible but made to fit the differences in this world and theirs.

In reply to Filip Luszczyk  who stated "As for your idea, what makes me wonder is why you include those "false" gods that the players can follow, and give the major "God" a special name? Although I may lack the proper understanding of your faith's values, this idea doesn't seem very monoteistic to me, and I have this gut feeling that its reception in Christian communities wouldn't be very enthusiastic, if only due to the first impression such presentation might create." each god has a specific name, including all of the false gods. the reason they are added is so that non-christians and christians alike can play to their hearts desire without feeling pressured in the christian vales.  Most christians I have talked to agree with this for the same reason I have added them, non-christians follow false "gods" such as alcholism, pornography, and the like, so there is no difference between the false gods and my game and the realistic point of view to christians.

[Daniel Davis]

Hey Seth,

I had a very similar experience growing up, and let me give you a suggestion that should not require a lot of work from you and, additionally, will prevent your "Christian" game from being just a lame version of D&D.

What concerned Christian parents really object to in an imaginative medium like this is not the presence or existence of gods, demons, magic, etc. What they object to is somehow presenting these elements in a positive or even neutral light. And they especially do not want you, as a player, to identify with a character who doesn't follow the God of the scriptures. So here's a solution that is at once elegant and fun -- and, in addition, permits you to play straight up D&D, with little or no rules modifications. As I said, it will require a minimum of effort from you and your group.

1. Change the setting. Instead of being set in the traditionally medieval fantasy world, read through the book of Judges and adapt it to that kind of setting. Have all the PCs, even if they're not Clerics by class, be worshipers of Yahweh. You don't have to make the setting historically realistic.

2. Change the mission. Give the PCs a common goal: eliminate the influence of foreign gods and gain glory and followers for Yahweh and treasures for his holy places. If you set the action during the time of the Judges, have your PCs be "unwritten" Judges or, perhaps, folks that one or more of the historical Judges commissions to take care of things for him. "Sure, Sampson, we'll go investigate what's going on at the Temple of Dagon." Or perhaps you want to put things after Solomon's built the temple.

3. Change the color. Just scan through the scriptures (or pick up an ancient near eastern history book) and find some god names: Baal, Dagon, Asherah, Enlil, et al. Use these names on the standard D&D gods; so Boccob might become Baal or whoever.

"Magic" weapons are just weapons that some priest of Yahweh (or El or Elohim or whatever you want to call him) have blessed. You "buy" the weapons per the prices in the DMG; these are your rewards in exchange for your contribution of riches to support the priesthood of Yahweh.

And magic in general you can present as miraculous abilities granted to the PCs by God. The false gods can grant powers too, just like (let's say) in Exodus, when the wise men of Pharaoh turned their staffs into snakes, just like Moses did.

4. Presentation. You're going to have to be a good salesman. You might even need to make a write up to present to the concerned parents, explaining what your game is about and what it consists of. I mean, if one of my (future) son's or daughter's friends came to me with a description of a game in which the players fight for the glory of God against the false gods of the heathens, I'd be all on board with it. If they're worried about the game's violence, tell them to read the Bible itself, that you won't exceed the kinds of things you'd find in the scriptures.

I hope that's helpful. While of course you can make your own game, D&D, in spite of its many faults, can be a blast if all your players are of one mind concerning your expectations for the game. If you can get them to sign on to the premise above (Holy warriors killing demons and murderous cultists, defending the people of God!), then you should be well on your way to a good (and sufficiently wholesome) time.

[Callan S.]

Hi Seth,

Why don't you just play D&D with your parents, saying beforehand that as soon as they detect a satanic element they say so and play stops. If they don't want to try it at all, ask if they are already detecting a satanic element in just the suggestion of putting the game on trial. Or whether they just don't want to try it.

[earwig]

Hey Seth!  Luckily, I didn't face the D&D is satanic thing at my house, but I had some friends who did.  A great place to start (outside of role-playing) is C.S. Lewis or even Tolkein.  C.S. Lewis was very religeous and his Narnia books use fantasy imagery to convey very Christian themes.  Tolkein was a devout Catholic, and being that his work seems to be the starting point for most people into fantasy, you might say that these themes are at least sprinkled throughout fantasy.  Beowulf (the poem) and Arthurian legend pay lots of homage to Christian virtues as well.  (be a bit leary of Beowulf, as it is at its core very pagan, but with Christianity creeping into Britain, there are references to it.  In fact (thinking back quite a ways now), if I am not mistaken, Grendel was spawned from Cain.

My point is all genres are what you put into them.  D&D is very generic, and you can develope your world as you like.  The so-called "satanic" elements are still there (magic, other gods, etc.), but you are not required to use any of them. 

Also, check out Pendragon.  Yes, there's pagans and magic there too, but there is also Christianity, and a Christianity that is prevelant in the eyes of the people.  While you have the option to play a Pagan character, it is by no means required, and depending on the GM, life may be easier if you don't/

If your goal is to make a game devoid of these "negative" influences so that others in your situation can just pick up and play from the get-go without having to upset their parents/guardians, then I think that's nobel.  Check out http://socratesrpg.blogspot.com/2006/01/what-are-power-19-pt-1.html and look at the 19 questions.  It's a great place to start when designing your game.  It lays your goals out for you, and gives you something to work towards in a more organized manner. 

Good luck!

[Seth M. Drebitko]

Ok first a list:
http://www.holylands.net/
http://claymore.50megs.com/
http://www.dragonraid.net/
http://www.spiritualwarfarerpg.com/
http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=19191&it=1 (testament role playing in the biblical era)
http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=19208&it=1(Testament: The Hittites)
http://www.rpgnow.com/index.php?manufacturers_id=729 (makers of Echoes of Heaven: Throne of God)
http://www.lumpley.com/games/dogsources.html (dogs in the vineyard)
http://www.decipher.com/lordoftherings/rpg/ (I don’t get why Christians have boners for LOTR but hey why not)
http://files.crngames.com/cc/paladin/paladin.html (paladin by clinton r nixon)
 I know there is at least five more titles that I just can't remember the names of, but you get the picture. One important thing to consider is that nearly all of the above is based on or uses the d20 system. I would honestly say the d20 market is full with Christian rpgs, and unless your idea is beyond warriors of God kicking ass for the lord your game will most likely fall short of peoples wants. Take it from Vince creator of Dogs in the Vineyard who capitalized on the western gun slingers for the lord with a unique poker stakes conflict resolution system.
 I would advise that at the very, very minimum you check out Paladin from Clinton (it would be nice if you bought it though), and purchase Dogs in the Vineyard from lumpley games. Check these out piddle around with your design goals and see if straight d20 is really what you want. Until then I would say if changing the names of elves, and dwarves gets the game your looking to play awesome go with it, all that’s important is you have fun right?

Regards, Seth
~and the person above that posted the same time as me is right about the power 19 for sure~

[SethCarmikle]

Thanks for all of the ideas, I will definitly check out and go through the power of 19.  I still wish to create my own RPG, however, and am trying to base it on a realistic point-of-view (as in morals and dieties, not time, classes, or etc.)

[JohnG]

Seth,

Welcome to the Forge!

First of all let me tell you that your current idea will most likely be unrecognizable from your original idea once you've been working on it and suddenly had a flash of inspiration or a grinding doubt about a certain part of the game.  The best advice I can give from my own experience is just start writing whatever it is in your head no matter what it is, I've filled about 5 notebooks with random stuff I've thought up for my game Ember and I'm using maybe 1 notebook's worth of stuff. 

Have you considered other genres though?  Everyone's going to gravitate toward fantasy for Christian references, Tolkien and Lewis made sure of that long long ago.  (One reason why the whole D&D being satanic thing makes me laugh is it's so obviously influenced by LotR.)  The Left Behind series of books is one good example, the end of the world in modern times. 

I'm working on a game using Christian themes as well and if you want someone to bounce ideas off of just let me know, just be advised ideas will be bounced off you in return!

Good luck!
John Grigas

[matthijs]

Seth,

You want to make a game that's fun and lets you and your friends keep playing? Man, if everyone just did that, the world would be a better place. And I actually mean that.

Whether it's going to be interesting to the Christian community is a whole different thing. Do you want that, as well? Commercial success and stuff? Or is that not really important to you?

[Creatures of Destiny]

You should think about the reward system. D&D has XP which favours killing monsters and also uses treasure/magic items as rewards. Pendragon has Glory as the main reward, and glory is gained from acting like a Chivalric knight. TSR's old Marvel super heroes had Karma, which was gained from acting in a Super hero kinda way - for example if you killed someone you lost ALL your karma.

So you can really change the way players play by having your reward system reward "Christian" behaviour  (the inverted commas are there because the game's working definition may not be everyone's). Players could still gain experience, treasure and whanot but their real aim is the accumulation of Virtue. Make the values loose enough so non-Christians aren't being force-fed morality but do think about how to reward players whose characters don't just go round killing things and looting the bodies.

[David B. Goode]

Hey Seth,

I'm new here. I hope I can add something to the content here. You've already gotten some great advice, and I'm really impressed with the openness of the community here.

A little about me, so you know where I'm coming from. My dad is a Christian minister, but my folks never had a big problem with D&D, unless I was designing adventures during math class (which may have happened). I've still seen what you're talking about. When I grew-up, I myself became a youth minister. I've noticed, thankfully, that the young pups of today face much less hostility from the church.

Still, when I ran my first table-top rpg for members of my youth group, it was NOT D&D that I pulled out. Instead, I designed my first rpg - which has a pretty cool experience.

Anyway, I've learned a few things from designing games and worlds over the years - most of them specifically adhering to and expressing even a Christian world view.

If you have an idea for a new game, create a new game. If not - if what you want is D&D but with Judaeo-Christian values or trappings, you can do that without huge amounts of work. The d20 system, which is the game mechanic system that D&D is currently on (3rd edition& 3.5) uses an open game license. That means that the basic rules are usable by the public. This includes classes, races, skills, the combat system, feats, most of the monsters, etc.. There are a good deal of licensed products that run pretty much just like D&D, but are called something else. By overlaying the world you're creating on the d20 system, you essentially create your own game, not called D&D, but called "Angels and Apostles" or whatever. You can add rules and lose rules according to the feel you want. So, you might get rid of wizards as a class or introduce a mechanic to handle spiritual gifts. You can replace the "spells per day" model with a point cost system that might account for "manna".

Remember the d20 system is for high-action adventure. If you want a more realistic system, look for games that use multiple dice to determine resolutions. There are also a lot of cool games that give players more control over the story.

Anyway, I hope this was helpful, and Merry Christmas.