[eXpendable] Skills and Equipment...finally!

[greyorm]

So, I've been semi-steadily thinking my way through the tied skill-and-equipment module for my sci-fi game, eXpendable (a Ronnies entry from 2005, for the curious), and now I am at the point I need some feedback. Here's where the work on that system is at:

In eXpendable, you don't have skills per se, you have equipment based on your niche (your skills or set-of-skills or however you want to describe it). This may be determined by a set list or by some manner of niche-limited player choice, likely with gamemaster oversight of the final product.

I wasn't certain how I wanted to handle defining and creating equipment until recently, when I looked at Sorcerer again and realized I could use analogues of the demon rules for equipment, and that the skill-niche is also basically an analogue to Cover.

• Equipment provides some bonus dice to one of a player's Stats, with narrative Color depending on the type of equipment. It may also impose penalty dice on another Stat. Because of this, equipment can be best described using a "short list" of possible broad effects (armor, damage, knowledge, etc.) like Sorcerer's demons, with the dice rating of the equipment equaling the bonus (similar to Power).


• For each bonus die a piece of equipment provides, it can have one Ability. You don't HAVE to give it abilities, but you CAN if it makes sense. (Power armor that has a built in targeting and GPS-mapping systems? Three Abilities. Maybe the gamemaster decides it also reduces Movement by one.)


• Like demons, equipment is either stuff you start the game with or stuff you roll to get during the game. You can't just pick up stuff lying around and use it unless you successfully narrate that it exists in the shared space (with a roll) or the GM drops it in (with your roll determining how many dice it gives you).


• You can only use one piece of equipment in an action. If you want to switch from shooting your phase rifle to checking your GPS for an escape route or higher ground? That's an action, like commanding a demon in Sorcerer.


• Equipment can take damage instead of you. A combat roll is going to off you? Push the damage to your body armor. You lose equipment and can only make more with successful rolls against the number of dice the equipment you want to find has.


• You rely on your equipment, that is, it is central to your survival and any actions you might take, similar to demons in Sorcerer (though in this case, more similar to the bonus dice Sorcerer's GM hands out). However, unlike demons, equipment doesn't necessarily push moral conflicts in and of itself, though it MIGHT ("Do I let my gun get trashed or choose to let Ralph's character/the innocent bystanders/the airlock take the damage instead?").

I still need to create the Ability list and work out the exact "start of game" equipment/skill-niche rules, but does anyone have any questions? Is there anything I've missed that I need to take into account? Anything I should consider that I am not?

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Raven,

I think this has a lot of merit.

There are basically three angles of approach to a game which includes a wide range of technological abilities and equipment: objects, currency, and effects.

Lists of objects are what you find in most games, with their effects being associated with each, and their only tenuous link to Currency (in the broad sense) being currency/money in the setting, and in fact their availability is primarily subject to decree. That's the one you're avoiding, right?

A Currency-based mechanic means objects are basically built out of an abstract resource the character has available (points of some kind usually), and constructed according to some formula or other. I recommend checking out the rules for building equipment in Space Rat, by Nathan Russell, also of Ronnies fame. It's a very successful game design, and the Currency-based equipment rules are both effective and elegant. This method may include effects-based thinking as well, although sometimes it doesn't.

Finally, effects-based stuff is the Sorcerer way, especially if the Currency it's based on isn't complex or interesting on its own (in Sorcerer, Lore is a little bit interesting as a determinant of the number of abilities, but that's all). The questions are always, how many units of effects are available to characters, which effects are available or not, and how do those values change over time? I think your idea for the rolls is excellent! It reminds me a bit of the Clout rules from Army Ants, but more flexible during play rather than merely stopping at the depot every so often.

Best, Ron

[greyorm]

Thanks for the feedback, Ron, your response has been a great help to think about the notions all this is based on and solidify them, and to examine what the rules are both attempting and doing.

Lists of objects are what you find in most games, with their effects being associated with each, and their only tenuous link to Currency (in the broad sense) being currency/money in the setting, and in fact their availability is primarily subject to decree. That's the one you're avoiding, right?

Exactly.

For those who aren't on the same page: one of the issues I have with sci-fi RPGs is their treatment of technology/equipment exactly as D&D treats treasure: the equipment is quite often "magical" (or almost so) and allows you to become more powerful and capable. But this doesn't work in most sci-fi games because treasure, in the D&D sense, is really magical and also stuff you can only find while adventuring: you have to win fights for it, overcome puzzles, and survive grueling deathtraps in order to claim it as yours; what you can't do is run down to the local Trader Bobarth's for a +4 Handaxe of Giant-Slaying or Ring of Wishes.

Further, in sci-fi, the tech is a big part of the situation and often a subtle commentary on both the narrative and human behavior, not just color or power-ups. Yet most games treat tech as if there are no downsides to it, it isn't difficult to get more of, and with the right number of credits, every punk in the universe can blow up a star because Death Stars are just rolling off an assembly line somewhere. once you have it, it never breaks, malfunctions, is destroyed, stolen, or lost. It's often just background accessorising.

The "buy your way to power/mechanical influence" dynamic is one I simply don't like and that doesn't work from the standpoint of a game or a narrative. Fading Suns handles this problem uniquely, by making technology back into D&D treasure. You can't buy most of the stuff, there's no market or factories or anything similar any longer. Instead, tech has to be given or found or recovered from dangerous ruins left prior to the new dark ages. You can get some from the Church, but they may also be looking to impound or destroy as heresy whatever technological wonder you happen to find or earn.

FS can use this route due its setting, whereas the base setting I'm assuming is technologically advanced. As such, I need a fundamental design rule: technology you can just buy should be Color; technology that alters your game effectiveness or the limit/extent of your abilities within the narrative should actually cost you something to get in Currency, it should (have the potential to) deplete a Resource.

IE: So, your character is trapped on a planet with no starship, because someone blew his up? It's going to cost you game resources that affect your character's overall survivability and effectiveness to obtain, unless getting off the planet is just plot/pacing/framing and not a part of a conflict.

Another rule I mention above that might not seem obviously important is one that helps avoid the "perfectly magical technology" problem, regarding the GM's ability (one of his functions, actually) to impose any penalties/downsides to or limits on the equipment the character's have. Chemical slug-rifles can't fire underwater or cause hull deadly ruptures when used on space vessels, satellite-based GPS systems don't function (or function poorly) deep underground or in areas of high-energy interference, etc.

I'm hoping these rules, and the damage rules, will help avoid "gain benefits by decree" situation and also the "technology has no drawbacks/limitations" meme.

I recommend checking out the rules for building equipment in Space Rat, by Nathan Russell, also of Ronnies fame.

Thanks for the heads up! I read through it and I like it, very much the same design technique I'll be using, though the Currency in this case will not be actual currency, but a Stat function I need to playtest.

[Ron Edwards]

I'll look forward to trying it out. I always liked those Clout rules in Army Ants. Although a number of games have a "Tech" score, their use is often limited to fairly uninteresting issues during actual play, or to scenes that require a gross amount of GM setup and control ("the engine widget is broken, you have ten minutes to fix it before the asteroid hits ..."). A score that concerns getting, using, or fixing technology sounds like a lot of fun.

Best, Ron

[dredd_funk]

Grey - I very much appreciate your dilemma.  After reading your post, an idea crossed my mind.  To follow up on what Ron has said, the four major concerns seem to be: acquisition, use, repair, and use in situation.  If we are primarily talking about 'non-color' items, there seems to me one unifying mechanic that you can use in all these situations: social influence.  Bear with me for a minute here as I explain.

Acquisition:
Technology ownership in our own world is limited both by monetary and governmental (social) constraints.  As an average citizen, I can't simply go out and pick up an M-16, a few grenades, a claymore or two, etc., even if I have a lot of money.  You only obtain these types of things through two avenues of *social* influence: legal and illegal.

On the legal side, I may know someone that can help me get the license necessary to obtain some of these; or I may be part of a governmental or quasi-governmental organization that grants me access to them.  On the illegal side, I may know someone who successfully stole some of these items and who is willing to part with them for a 'favor' or two, or possibly cash, but with the added side-effect that I now own stolen goods.

In either case, my central observation is that tech objects (or any objects) that are more than 'color' are going to be owned by/obtained through people.  People don't always want money in exchange for objects; very often some other sort of 'social currency' is required.

Thus, a social currency that measures/tracks a character's influence in the various social spheres (legal/illegal) that give you access to these 'non-color' items could make sense for you.  Moreover, gaining and spending 'social currency' isn't nearly as straight-forward as gaining and spending 'monetary currency'.  On either side of the legal spectrum, powerful people usually have plenty of money...but there are other things that they want...

The upside: you don't get to tool around in the Death Star for a day unless you have some heavy, heavy connections, and a *lot* of leverage with those connections, perhaps gained through having done them favors, or by having a lot of incriminating evidence on them.

We get hung up on the fact that, in most of our transactions with other people, we've agreed to a social convention of using money for making the exchange.  Money is just a stand-in, however, for the other things that people *really* want.  It sounds like you'd rather get to the exchange of those 'primary' desires, when it comes to 'non-color' technology items, and I think that's a good idea.  Those 'primary desires' are likely non-trivial, and make for more interesting play.

Use:
If you don't already have the ability to use something ('color' items in your niche), you'll need to find someone to teach you how to use it effectively.  If the item is fairly mundane (a personal computer) that process is neither complicated nor fraught with much peril.  If the item is *not* mundane, an M1-A1 tank perhaps, that process is likely incredibly complicated and fraught with a lot of danger.  Again, the avenue for getting such training here is primarily social, and not based on money.  Who do I know that can teach me how to drive a tank, and how much danger am I in even trying to find them?

Repair:
I'm a homeowner and things break all the time: I either have to get them repaired or do it myself.  Repairs for 'color' items can just cost money.  However, when I need that M1-A1 repaired, that I'm not legally supposed to have, that, again, is going to take some serious social currency.  Maybe I can get someone to teach me how to repair parts of it myself, but, again, I can't just run down to the local car mechanic.

Use in Situation:
Even if I have an M1-A1 stashed some place, I can't really just bust it out at the drop of a hat and use it without consequences.  The more restricted the tech is, the more notice it will garner when you use it.  Inevitably, people will start asking questions.

If someone sees that I have a knife tucked into my belt, they'll probably just give me a wide berth.  If they see me carrying an M60 down the street, they're going to run and tell the cops.

Powerful tech items in the game could have a 'notoriety' factor: when using them, you incur a risk, based on this factor, of having unwanted attention drawn to your character/party.  Again in those situation, social influence (with local cops, the military, the resident crime lord) is what is likely to get me out of trouble.

Just some thoughts. Good Luck!

[Vulpinoid]

Good thread guys...

I'm going through some of these issues as I'm playing through a few more tests runs of the 8th Sea. When time travel get thrown into the equation it can get nasty, even when you just consider a simple action of picking up a current level computer for $1000 and taking it back 10, 30, 50 years in the past, where it's value would be exponentially greater for every decade.

It's the same computer, it does the same stuff for the same character, but it's dollar value changes dramatically.

The social currency makes more sense in perspective to what the machine does and what benefits it is able to provide someone.

I'll keep watching this thread, because it's giving me ideas...thanks.

V

[greyorm]

Those are excellent observations, Dredd, especially the bit about social clout/connections as a resource.

I can't really use that for eXpendable as it uses a closed scenario system, where there is no role-played "down-time" between missions wherein a distinctly social measure might have some interesting use in acquiring tech, or at least not much use in actual play.

So I'm think trying to fit it in here would actually result in play situations akin to Ron's observation above of such abilities "...limited to fairly uninteresting issues during actual play, or to scenes that require a gross amount of GM setup and control..." because the socio-economic connections/influence of the characters aren't an important factor of play.

Now, in a game about acquiring and selling technology or arms or whatnot, I could see that sort of measure working very well, such as a game about being a black market arms -- or otherwise -- dealer, or in a game like Shadowrun where "suiting up" or "running guns and fencing tech" is a big part of play.

As I envision eXpendable play right now, all those factors -- the four your mention -- will be rolled up into the Tech score, rather the way many different factors get rolled into Sorcerer's Cover or Stamina, with situational modifiers "as the story demands" included as they apply (though right now I am split on whether or not to include narrative bonuses, which is an entirely different post).

Still, many good thoughts about things I need to consider and will take into account. For example, Notoriety is a great idea for various use-penalties for different sorts of Tech, and easily tailored per scenario (frex: the xenomorphic creatures the team is hunting down are attracted to the plasma discharges of their rifles or the EM fields of their computers, giving the xenos a Movement bonus against the characters -- or the characters a Movement penalty when trying to escape the xenos).

[dredd_funk]

Raven,

I should have searched through the Forge for more information on your project before answering.  Social influence is not something that would work well, media res, the way you describe your project.  One doesn't exactly, as you point out, check with one's 'connections' when trying to repair the hyperdrive before you're blasted to pieces by the bad guys.

There is, after all, a difference between going to see Lando on Cloud City to see if he can fix your hyperdrive and trying to fix it while you're being shot at by imperial cruisers.  The former requires social connections; the latter requires, well, something else. 

I'll try to read through some of your other posts about the project before responding further.

Cheers.
Chris

[greyorm]

Dredd, it is not a problem and there is no need to apologize. I really appreciate your time and thoughts in responding to the thread, even if I couldn't use the core idea. As I said to Ron, the feedback it gives me a chance to really think about the game and even with things I end up not able to use a chance to consider aspects I hadn't. But, hey, I certainly won't mind if you read up more on the project! Please let me know if you have any questions or observations about any aspect of it!

[dredd_funk]

Raven - I read through your initial post on eXpendable in your 'press' forum, and it gave me a little better sense of what you're trying to accomplish.  That post was from quite some time ago, however.  Is there anything more recent?

Cheers,
Chris

[greyorm]

Raven - I read through your initial post on eXpendable in your 'press' forum, and it gave me a little better sense of what you're trying to accomplish.  That post was from quite some time ago, however.  Is there anything more recent?

Thanks for taking the time to dig through all that! Unfortunately, I don't have anything else readable by any other human (a lot of scattered notes and flash-in-the-pan ideas in shorthand that even I have trouble recalling the meaning of). You can find the (I think) most recent public iteration of the rules on the 24-hour RPG site, complete with uncorrected snaffus and goofs.

The development has been slow so far because I don't have a current gaming group, and thus lack a decent feedback mechanism and forward-moving development incentive. I was hoping to have something both concrete and more advanced together to playtest for Forge Midwest, but as I've just committed the majority of my free time to another project, that now doesn't seem likely to occur.

I will keep pushing forward with the design, so expect more posts on the design and various issues I'm having with linking everything together in the near future.

[dindenver]

Raven,
  There are pitfalls to equipment lists, don't get me wrong, I totally dig where you are coming from.
  But, there is a value to supplying at least a sample equipment list. The value is, it tells you what kind of sci fi we are talking about. Even subtle little clues tells you a lot about the genre conventions expected. For instance, "Hand Phaser" tells you that there are much bigger phasers. If you have an assortment of laser swords, that tells us that melee combat is a viable option in this setting. Plus there are other clues that tell you how advanced the sci is going. Can you obtain a man-portable anti-gravity generator? Personal force field? How advanced are the robots? Holograms, etc?
  You can use equipment to really set the tone and mood in a way that nothing else really can.

  In the end though, if you goal is to avoid shopping scenes and what not, maybe just define kit as tools like in TSoY. Clinton was really able to dodge a lot of bullets by saying a useful tool give a +1 in situations where it is appropriate, a magic tool might give a +2, etc. In this way, there is a point to having a "Hyperspanner," but you don't have to come up with stats that are meaningless in a scenario.

  Good luck!

[greyorm]

Heya Dave,

I agree, it is very true that equipment sets the tone!

I know this idea isn't stated above above, but I do plan to include sample equipment to help seed the imagination and, well, showcase how the rules for equipment works. There will likely be a standard/sample "kit" for various standard/sample skills and the equipment that comes with it (Combat Medic, Systems Analyst, Heavy Weapons Officer, Grunt, etc.) as well so folks can jump right in and play without having to build everything from the ground up if they would like to do so.

However, a lot of the tech. level is going to be user-defined by the group, again, similar to Sorcerer where you own the setting by deciding at the start what Humanity, demons, and sorcery are like. So, if you want low-tech early-70's sci-fi lead-shooting rifles, missiles and rail-guns instead of 90's-style space opera hand lasers, photon torpedoes, and death rays, the group decides on that sort of thing up front. And I don't mind questions coming up in play like, "Is there hologram technology? How advanced?" I think that would actually be a great use of either Smarts or Tech! (heck, the intended use)

I've never read TSOY (such a heretic am I), but I'm not worried about "shopping scenes" per se because there shouldn't be any such thing in play (see discussion above) -- the concern is more about the way technology is treated as a component of the game in most sci-fi RPGs and how its availability and thus the power-level/abilities of the characters comes down (rather boringly) to fiat or a sort-of-structured fiat alone.

[dindenver]

Raven,
  Yeah, boring, tedious and subject to incorrect interpretation are real limiters to gear lists.
  I think a good workaround would be to make a list of kit that every character can be expected to have, as well as some specialized kit that certain character types will only have and will be most likely to have on their persons. This will obviate the need for tracking ammo, weapons, etc. And really draw focus on the things that the player wants but that is unusual.
  Maybe the best way to handle gear is to handle it the same way Donjon handles secret doors. Just include a stat that indicates the characters likelihood of having/finding tech and make them roll against that to have it.
  Oh, and the section on gear in TSoY is like one paragraph, I'll see if I can find it on the wiki and maybe it will inspire you...

[dindenver]

Raven,
  http://tsoy.crngames.com/Resolution#Weapons_and_armor
  Six paragraphs and no gear lists. Might be the sort of thing you are driving at...