[IAWA] Forms Dice Values: Covert or Overt?

[David Artman]

I've been closely following the Battle for the Ring thread(s); and they made me think of a related, but by no means critical, question:

Should players keep their Forms Dice secret from the other players?

Pros: One must enter a conflict--or observe one--in order to get some notion of the player's relative strengths and weaknesses. Only after some "feeling out" could a player go for the kill, pushing intractably to injure or exhaust, presumably wanting ot have to do so the fewest times possible (i.e. choosing to injure or exhaust based on which set of Forms has the lowest high die, rather than guesswork or influence from the narrations).

So, keeping Forms Dice a secret as long as possible should increase the importance (and dynamism, and caginess) of early scenes, should inject more tension in the I or E decision, and should remove most of the capability to "game" the system and jump a guy, whale on his weakest pair, and knock him out super fast.

Cons: ...I got nuthin'. Other than somewhat undermining the "open negotiation" and "the players are not the characters" thing, I see no downside.

Thoughts?

[Moreno R.]

From the few times I have played, it seems to me that it would go the other way: you really want to be on the Owe list, even in a one-shot (the last time I played I used any occasion to get my name on it multiple times, and then at the end of the session I was almost unstoppable, having an advantage die at the start of almost every conflict and then two dice in the following rounds), so you need to know where you opponent is STRONG, and attack him there.  (the character creation chapter openly say to choose your best interest in this way, seeing where the other characters are more strong. It can be done only if you KNOW where they are strong)

Anyway, you can't really force the choice of the trait to use on your adversary, so you can't force him to use weak trait even if you see his sheet. He can always say "I will not use Violence, I will use directly and for myself, hitting you with my sword to defend myself". (At most you can tempt him, going against his better traits, and even then he can refuse and defend himself with worse traits to get on the owe list), so I don't really think that playing with hidden sheets would give you any more uncertainty in the conflict of what you already have with open sheets, and will sabotage the Owe List economy.

[lumpley]

David, you can try playing with them hidden, if you like. I never tried it.

It might be great! Let us know.

-Vincent

[David Artman]

Thanks for unpacking, allow me to redirect a bit:

From the few times I have played, it seems to me that it would go the other way: you really want to be on the Owe list, even in a one-shot (the last time I played I used any occasion to get my name on it multiple times, and then at the end of the session I was almost unstoppable, having an advantage die at the start of almost every conflict and then two dice in the following rounds), so you need to know where you opponent is STRONG, and attack him there.

I could also choose my d4 and d6 forms and be virtually guaranteed to be on the We Owe list.

So what you're saying is that I would not much want to be against his weak dice, because of We Owe. But what if I want him dead, like, on Day One? I pull big dice, and when I win, I choose to reduce his pair of forms which have the lowest high die... but only if the sheets are exposed. Two forms at 0 = Dead/Gone, right? And there's only one d10 and one d12, right? Ergo, AT BEST he could distribute his d10 and d12 such that one is in the injured pair and the other in the exhausted pair, and I choose to reduce the pair with the d10. Four more and he's dead (less, if he borked up and his d8 or d6 is the high die in that pair).

Ya see? Sure, I get it that the We Owe list is manipulable by him and his die choice (or me and mine); but I'm speaking more to the results after round three. Suppose, say, that he used the forms that are neither injury nor exhausted: I can use some process of elimination (I've seen those two dice in the conflict) to figure his other forms dice, but I can't confidently attack his weakest pair until he's broken out dice from both pairs... and maybe not even then. Thus, I think hidden sheets would ALSO drive more "building conflicts" or "probing of strength", while visible sheets would result in higher confidence to attack to kill/eliminate immediately.

(the character creation chapter openly say to choose your best interest in this way, seeing where the other characters are more strong. It can be done only if you KNOW where they are strong)

I didn't recall that, and it does seem to imply that sheets are visible to all... if, in fact, "strong" above means "strongest forms." And I can't, at the moment, imagine how my knowing his form dice would somehow influence my best interests--as you say above, I can never force him to use a certain form, so why would I build my best interest around another's strengths OR weaknesses?

Maybe a citation would help: page and paragraph or direct quote? I suspect something is misconstrued, here, on one or the other side of our discussion....

Anyway, you can't really force the choice of the trait to use on your adversary, so you can't force him to use weak trait even if you see his sheet. He can always say "I will not use Violence, I will use directly and for myself, hitting you with my sword to defend myself". (At most you can tempt him, going against his better traits, and even then he can refuse and defend himself with worse traits to get on the owe list), so I don't really think that playing with hidden sheets would give you any more uncertainty in the conflict of what you already have with open sheets, and will sabotage the Owe List economy.

Well, that really wasn't my point at all: I know I can't force his choice. What I *can* do is, upon winning round three, is injure or exhaust him, no compromises. And if I know all his forms dice, I can most-efficiently do him in.

As for the follow-on point about sabotaging the We Owe list--how the heck do I do that, by not knowing others' forms dice? Again, I can't force his choice, so I can't do anything to 'game' the We Owe economy except put forth MY weakest dice and hope he doesn't match or even go lower (e.g he has two d4 or a 0 form). Put another way, my knowing his form dice gives me zero leverage for positioning myself weakly in the first round (to get on We Owe).

But knowing his form dice gives me a LOT of leverage for efficiently eliminating him from the chapter.

Have I misunderstood you, maybe? I feel like the above redirect is more of a "No, it IS" kind of reply... but I wanted to make it clear that I am not really speaking to We Owe, but to damage and intentional elimination. And I don't think you've shown how We Owe breaks with secrecy....

Vincent, I'll try it out next time I play (and do an AP). When that will be? Who knows... my "group" (of about four session) collapsed again, and I am trying to figure out how to get another regular play group put together out of the two of us remaining, friends who haven't RPed in years, and (eventually) internet strangers. Could be a while... but stay tuned.

[Moreno R.]

Thanks for unpacking, allow me to redirect a bit:

From the few times I have played, it seems to me that it would go the other way: you really want to be on the Owe list, even in a one-shot (the last time I played I used any occasion to get my name on it multiple times, and then at the end of the session I was almost unstoppable, having an advantage die at the start of almost every conflict and then two dice in the following rounds), so you need to know where you opponent is STRONG, and attack him there.

I could also choose my d4 and d6 forms and be virtually guaranteed to be on the We Owe list.

Yes, but it would be very risky: It would be very easy to get only very low results and be out of the fight at the first roll, getting injured without even getting on the list.

So what you're saying is that I would not much want to be against his weak dice, because of We Owe. But what if I want him dead, like, on Day One? I pull big dice, and when I win,

And he gets on the Owe list.  So, even if you kill him, he can return next time. You don't (if you don't get on the list another time)

Even if you injure him and go for a second fight, this time he could use the die from the owe list and injure you. You are not assured that you will win the second time, even if you won the first, and the die from the owe list has a lot of weight in a conflict.

Anyway, what I am saying is that you will not have a choice to get on the owe list or use the bigger dice, but you will have to risk without knowing the choice you are making. I am not saying that it will not work, I was objecting to your "I see no downside".

[David Artman]

I am not saying that it will not work, I was objecting to your "I see no downside".

Ok, I can dig it. Still... I'm gonna play that way some time and see how it changes play (after a few session "out in the open").