help with magic system

[redwing]

I'm creating a magic system, similar to all those that use a grammar (noun+verb) system (Ars Magica, Mage, etc.). However, the setting that it will be used for is one where science predominates. So to echo this in the magic system, I will introduce nouns, verbs, and adjectives (same as nouns, just describes the effect) that are very focused.

Later down the road, I will change the names of these qualities to match the feeling, but right now I'm just tyring to peg the mechanics. In order to keep with the high level of science, the system will be greatly organized.

For the verbs: I'm looking to create four groups of six. The major four verbs will be: enhance/create, diminish/destroy, communicate/percieve, control/alter. I'm not trying to create an exhaustive list of magical possibilities for a game, but trying to give the best in accordance to the setting.

What I need help with: coming up with the "sub-verbs." For example for enhance/create: strengthen, create, heal, enlarge, ....., ....... [need two more]. This creates more of focus with what can be done mechanically with enhance.

I'm trying to figure out if a summon verb should fall under enhance/create or if a move verb under control/alter would suffice. Other areas of question are illusions (possibly control/alter), protection, absorbance of power, power mimicry, invisibility, etc.

To re-establish the necessity for this I would like to say that in the setting, science and study are very important. Wizards are more like chemists and engineers using a "Known periodic table" of powers. In this "sophisticated" setting, people without proper training cant just go running around casting spells that haven't been studied properly. Rules for spontaneous casting will be added later, but obviously issues arise in the setting.

Any contributions would be greatly appreciated.

[Eero Tuovinen]

A pleasure to see such a well formulated question here. I fear that making up these lists of stuff is pretty dull, I'm myself bad about it as well. Some thoughts:

Not to try to discourage your approach without knowing more about the game in toto, but more atmospheric names are not going to help make an effect-based system any more fitting for a mood. I for one always felt that the Ars Magica -originated tradition of taking a bog-standard systematic effect like damaging something and giving it an in-setting name like "Damagius" isn't really serving anything. It's still just an effect-first rules system that's just being embedded into the setting as well, which makes for some fiction that doesn't feel at all magical to me - magical logic is often much more symbolic and weighty than trivial rpg designer conventions about separating "moving things" from "damaging things" from "healing things" - those are all very mundane categories, and when I want magic to feel magical, I much prefer using some friggin' sephiroths or other genuinely magical logic instead.

One method you might wish to consider here is to split up keywords in a right arbitrary manner - it's magic after all, and doesn't necessarily accord with abstract Hero System power description logic even if it's scientific magic. Who knows, what if in your fantasy world the Control/Alter magic is split between day and night specialties? One is used to control things during the day, one during the night. No apparent logic connected to the act of controlling per se, but what of it? It's arbitrary anyway what magical effects you might choose to have or not have in your setting. If something like that makes sense for the setting, you might not need to split the keywords by effect at all.

Moving on, it seems to me that your example words are all so narrow as to actually accord with individual D&D spells. Looking through the D&D grimoire and picking appropriate ideas might prove fruitful.

For Enhance/Create, a couple of concrete suggestions:
Split 'create' into 'materialize' and 'duplicate', with the former only creating simple materials and the latter only making duplicates of existing things out of suitable materials.
'Combine' might be useful for something, I guess. Pretty specific, but so they are bound to be.

What do you have for the other keyword categories?

[Dan Svensson]

The Ultima series used magic syllables. Look here http://www.skepticfiles.org/cowtext/advent~1/ult6magc.htm at the bottom of the page.

[lumpley]

Brainstorming:

enhance/create:
strengthen
create
heal
enlarge
enhance
engender

diminish/destroy:
weaken
destroy
damage
shrink
diminish
purify

communicate/percieve:
detect
reveal
clarify
amplify
convey
broadcast

control/alter:
move
transform
evolve
devolve
protect
rearrange

Will this be a game about wizards, like Ars Magica and Mage are?

-Vincent

[David Berg]

I am really fuzzy on what "control/alter" might mean.  The other 3 categories are all alterations of a sort, and employing them implies control... so I'm kind of left with "control/alter" as an "other" category.  Here's a list of some sub-verbs that are probably "other", but might also be split between enhance/diminish:

purify/taint purity
harden/soften
brighten/dim
warm/cool
roughen/smooth
make brittle/make flexible
stretch/smush

Here's some senses-specific stuff for communicate/percieve:
make invisible
make inaudible
make intangible
...and then opposites of all 3, to reverse them.

And here's some types of things you could perceive:
see/hear past
see/hear future
see/hear in specified direction

[Vulpinoid]

I've been toying with a magic system like this for a while, it's been through a few incarnations though.

One of the more interesting variants that I'm still toying with incorporates a noun+verb+element concept.

Noun gives the object being affected.
Verb gives the way in which it is affected.
Element gives a dramatic appearance that applies modifiers to the effects depending on whether it's a suitable element to the effect being created.

The three words combine to form a difficulty, which is then compared versus the skill/magic level of the mystic.

Your six basic verbs would be low difficulty, your subtypes would be advanced words, with the easier words as prerequisites. 

Your nouns would be taught by different schools of magic who each learn to manipulate different types of objects (this can help to ground the system into the setting).

Your elements link in with the focal items used to enact the magic, with different gems/herbs/liquids/etc, resonating with different types of elemental energy. My version of the system also had these linking to the different types of schools.

I think one of the most important things here is to mention that not all schools have access to all nouns/elements, and some schools may recognise completely different elemental systems to others (such as the eastern/western elements present in different mystic schools in our world).

I'd also hasten to add that you don't want to incorporate everything into the magic system, because you'll often end up with contrived parts that just don't mesh with the rest of the system. If you think of an elegant way to incorporate a mystic effect later on, then you can always generate a new school in another land that has learnt to manipulate magic in this alternate manner.

Get the basics down for an elegant magic system, and tie it in with the other resolution mechanics that you're developing for the game.

But it sounds like you're already heading in that kind of direction.

V

[redwing]

thank you all for the replies. I have gotten some great ideas thus far.

Let me go into a little detail. As with any game (unless intended as universal) the system should facilitate the setting. This setting is one of science fantasy. Set in an atmosphere similar to our 19th century, heavily drawing on steampunk sources, this universe is one of both magic and science. Technology and Science have grown to rival magic. Dragons fly next to zepplins. Faerie and automota are both next door neigbors. Etc. Etc. Major themes include the affects of both magic and science on society and what it means to be human.

The game will hopefully set an even ground for characters based around physical, mental, social, and magical concepts. This is not a D&D ripoff where "social" classes are a rogue with backstab abilities and rangers with magical abilities. The rough part of the initial design was to keep this balance. There are still some issues being worked out. You may ask why this is pertinant to a magical question. Well the answer follows.

"Magic" is not necessarily just "magic." In this universe, the power of belief rules (going back to the latter theme). In the setting, what is magic is usually in the hands of wizards. However, in the system, magic is any supernatural ability or talent that aids the hero. In order to maintain the balance mentioned earlier, all abilities will be of the same sort. For example, in some games the warrior types depend on combat options, nobles use social skills, and sorcerors use pre-defined spell lists. Each work under different rule sets. The idea for this game is to combine special powers under one ruleset. Yes there will still be skills (athletic, craftsman, knowledge, discipline, clandestine, survival, public view, and profession) and talents/feats/what-have-you (any gift that grants additional mechanical bonuses).

However duelists, sorcerors, nobleman, and detectives all use special abilities in the same manner. So back to the noun-verb-adverb system.

The nouns I have so far are divided amongst the four types:

Physical (humanoid, plant, animal, faerie, undead, demons)
Social (contacts, appearance, command, wealth, rank, renown)
Mental (ethics, morals, personal allegiances, beliefs, mood/disposition, personality)
Magical (cardinal elements, para-elements, negative elements, positive elements, unifying elements, core elements)

So a wizard will still create a fireball (create elements), a duelist can enhance his physical capabilities by raging (enhance humanoid), a detective can solve a crime by forcing a contact to talk (communicate contacts), and a nobleman may use his abilities to dis-credit an opposing politician in the court (diminish renown), all using the same methods.

so far for the verbs I have:

enhance/create: strengthen, create, heal, grow
diminish/destroy: weaken, destroy, damage, shrink
communicate: scry, understand, detect
control: move, transform, transfer,

These aren't even set in stone and I really don't know what direction I want to go with the verbs, but I know I would like to distinguish them as before mentioned.

With this elaborated information, I am looking forward to hearing your thoughts and contributions.

[Mickey]

Hello redwing,

Are you going to be play testing this concept through the forum? If so could I participate?

I haven't read too much of what's been said (got excited once I heard 'magic system' to be honest xD), but I figure I could discover most of it as I played if you were willing to host a forum game

[Mickey]

As an add-on to my previous post, I like how you've taken the Verb/Noun system from Ars Magica (haven't actually played the game but I'm familiar with the concepts) and expanded it to include the 'mundane' skills.
Ideally, this system could act as a replacement for suggestive decision making ie instead of providing the player the option to "discredit the politician", he would instead 'use "diminish renown" on politician' -am I right?

I like that kind of system, my only fear is that it may be too complex for a lay person to use without the aid of computers on account of the vast amount of terms -though perhaps this is the route you wish to take? Perhaps I'm just lazy?? xD

One of the more interesting variants that I'm still toying with incorporates a noun+verb+element concept.

Noun gives the object being affected.
Verb gives the way in which it is affected.
Element gives a dramatic appearance that applies modifiers to the effects depending on whether it's a suitable element to the effect being created.

That sounds interesting Vulpinoid, I wonder if the 'element' part could be applied to mundane skills as well?

Evidently I am in love with mundane skills at the moment! xD