Free Form vs the List take on Thaumaturgy

[weaverchilde]

I have the majority of my system done for my game, but the magic system has been giving me a lot of issues because I have some very specific things that I want it to be capable of. The question / idea I'm struggling with it that of Thaumaturgical Rituals. In my system there is two "forms" of magic; Sorcery and Thaumaturgy (there is also Theurgy, but it is extremely static in relation to the divine being called on). Sorcery is fast and off the cuff magics with well defined effects, its close to the idea of Psionics in D20, but with a more 7th Sea vibe. Energy and effort are pumped in to get better results, but it can only increase along set parameters of the type of Sorcery.

Thaumaturgy on other hand is more open and based on the 5 laws of magic (list to follow) and the play of resonance. Resonance is the stumbling block. The idea is that Resonance changes the energy provided by a mage into the appropriate type of effect. The Mage's skill and success could in theory do all the shaping, but the use of material components with the proper relation ship to an idea ease this burden...

My initial idea was to create list of materials and give them a Resonance Type (the types of effects that it would be able to help with) and a Magnitude (the number of Successes that it would provide / hinder for opposing Resonances). The problem with this is the sheer length of materials that could be used and the fact that many materials would mean different things to different types of mages or even just carry multiple symbolic interpretations. The next thought is one of free-form development. This method would put a lot of work on the G.M. and I envision many of my early games of Mage: the Ascension the ended in debates of paradigm and acceptable sources of Paradox. What guidelines should be used to determine the Resonance of an material?

Here is the list of guidelines I was looking at:
Substance: Does the materials involved related to the idea of the rituals effect?
Form: Is the substance in a shape to relates to the rituals effect?
Essence: Is the Material invested with magical energies and how much?

It still seems that i will need to make at least short list of materials to discuss Substances and how they align with Magical effects. I think that most people can grasp the Form aspect out right, I mean you wouldn't try to make a Voodoo Doll that was shaped like a dog to affect a person.

[weaverchilde]

Follow up...


Limits of Magic
Life is Finite; The Lifeforce cannot be created nor destroyed, only altered (i.e. you cannot heal someone without taking the effect on himself, you can not give life to the inanimate or dead, it must be transferred from one source to another)
Essential Nature (changes to anything {physical form, emotions, thoughts, or even perceptions} will revert back to its original state once the empowering energy is exhausted)
Affect Time / Causality
Create two polar effects at once
Creation - Nothing can be created without the will to maintain it, and nothing permanent can be created without Essence to solidify it's pattern.



Metaphysics is an overview of the laws and guidelines that define the limits and applications through which magic can be explained. Ahtalisian magic is divided into several distinct branches, referred to collectively as the Gnostic Fundaments. Each Fundaments provides its practitioners an affinity to different effects, but still follow the same core understanding of the arcane mechanics involved. The following are the tenets by which magic must abide by:

Law of Arcane Being <Law of Patterns/Effigy<Law of Resonance<Law of Words/Thoughts/Ren - Called by many names this Law is derived directly from the Law of Patterns. Through the Law of Patterns the practitioner sees the connections between the Physical Thing and the Astral Pattern it emulates. It is through the Law of Ren (True Names) the practitioner learns that words also emulate Patterns on a conceptual level. Most common words and names have little power on the connection between the Pattern and the Physical Thing as they have been used over and over again, weakened to near non-existence. It is through the use of True Names or Ren that the connection may be found, as the pattern itself has its True Name within it. The True Names of the Patterns are long and precise definitions of the Completeness and Uniqueness that the Pattern is. The True Name of a physical object, simple animal or even a spirit is often static, the basic nature of these things rarely change and are still called the same thing throughout its existence. The True Name of a person on the other hand changes as the Person grows and develops, so finding the true name of a Person, even yourself, could take years of study. When used in rituals or Cantrips the Ren has the ability to cause ambient Essence to resonate with the Pattern it is connected to. By virtue of the Ren being a closer emulation to their Patterns, the practitioner enjoys a more powerful and malleable conduit for his magical energies. This law is the foundation of all Conjuring, Summoning and Rune Magic. Conjuring forces Essence into a reflection of the Pattern. Summoning draws the actual object or being into the reflection of his or her own pattern by Resonate Essence. Rune Magic differs from the previous two in that is often thought to be the physical written version of the Ren.

Law of Contagion<Law of Exchange<Alchemy <Effigies <Artifice and Enchantments <Familiars <Wands and Foci (Spellthrowers)<Amulets and Charms (Spell Catchers)<Runestone <Threshold <Running Water <Household<Consecrated Ground<Sunlight <Incantations (Spells) <Words of Power (True Names)<Vows Thrice Spoken (Fae Promises) <Dispelling <Wood <Ceramic & Glass<Metals<Body parts (necrotized items and blood) <Nexus Nodes<Techno-Mystic Dichotomy

[lumpley]

I have a suggestion. Go back through what you've written, especially the practices, and rewrite them from passive voice into active voice. Furthermore, refer to the players (including the GM) as the active agents, not the characters.

For instance, take this:

Alchemy - While normally a simple application of natural philosophy, Alchemy can be paired with Thaumaturgical insight to produce many wondrous effects. Brewed from seven components (one for each of the five mundane senses, one for the mystical awareness, and one final component to act as the binding agent between the others) an alchemical potion can be made into a pill, ointments, powders or even the more traditional draught. Each of the seven components must correlate to the desired effect of the potion to be effective and be infused with Elemental Essence that resonates with the desired result. Potions are often the easiest expression of mystical teachings, though they are the hardest to master with any true potency.

Rewrite it into player-focused active voice, you might get this:

Alchemy - While normally a simple application of natural philosophy, a player can have her character pair Alchemy with Thaumaturgical insight to produce many wondrous effects. The player can have her character make an alchemical potion into a pill, ointment, powder or even the more traditional draught. To make her character's potion effective, she has to have him correlate its components to the desired effect of the potion, and then she has to have him infuse the potion with Elemental Essence that resonates with the desired result.

I think that if you do this, it'll reveal to you almost automatically what you have to do next - what rules you have to create - in order to hit what you're shooting for. Your current document is hiding all its goods behind its strict in-setting passive voice.

-Vincent

[David Berg]

I love the Resonance idea.  I'm playing with similar concepts in my own game, but regarding place and time (of day, of month, of year, etc.) rather than objects (to which I assume Substance, Form, and Essence are being applied).  I hope you follow up on Vincent's suggestion; I'll be much better able to offer input if you do.

[Greg 1]

If every mage's magic worked the same way, I would sugest making a detailed list of components and the benefits they give, of the sort provided in GURPS Cabal.  Otherwise, you are just going to have to specify broad guidelines, I think.

[weaverchilde]

Greg 1 - Unfortunately, I have several fundaments of magical practice: Arcanists, Animism, Elementalists, Nethermancers, and Theurgists. They all use different Sorcery paths, but the ritual magics of Thaumaturgy, Alchemy, and Runes are static.

 lumpley - I am in the procces of the rewrite to a more active tone. Though to be very honest, active voice is my greatest failing as a writer... I always seem to slip into a more passive tone. Though I will work on it some more once final projects are done.

David Berg  - I have a similar time/day resonance idea as well. Times like SamhainNight will have powerful effect on Ley Lines as will holy ground and stone henge or the Pryamids.
BTW, I read your posts on [Core Engine: The World Behind] A Second Thread about my Magic system and yes it seems we have some similar ideas on magic. I would love to read more on what you have going

[Nev the Deranged]

I really dig the depth and "authenticity" of your guidelines here. I don't personally believe in magic, but I can certainly appreciate the logical laws it would follow if it were real, and find them intriguing.

I recently picked up several tarot decks, with the intention of teaching myself to do readings (and also play games). I'll be curious to see how you approach cartomancy, if/when you get to that part.

[weaverchilde]

[lumpley]

Seriously, active voice, with the player being the active agent. Not the characters, the players. Me, Emily, Mitch, sitting around the table.

This isn't for stylistic reasons. You can go on to write your final text in whatever style you like. No, it's conceptual. You need to design your game's magic for its players, not for its fictional characters or its setting. So far, as far as I can tell, you aren't thinking about the players at all.

-Vincent

[weaverchilde]

[David Berg]

The "Limits" strike me as power-balance issues.  I've used stuff like this in hopes of keeping my mage PCs "more or less normal people" (as opposed to, like, demigods), and keeping play "down to earth".  Are those goals of yours?

I continue to like the Laws, and I hope to see good use of these in play.

The Principles strike me as beginning the process of breaking up these 5 laws into a larger number of fun-to-play methods/effects.

My guess is that yet another step is needed, where Principles come together in a larger-still variety of Things a Mage Can Do.

Looking at your specific Principles, I think this would lend itself well to ritual play, where the PCs do elaborate prep for some casting.  Y'know, attune yourself, create an effigy, make a sacrifice, and then go for it.  If the prep and casting processes are themselves fun to play through (challenging, colorful and unpredictable, deepening characters, etc.), I think this would be neat (though it can clash with an "adventure" style of play).

Another option is to ditch playing through long castings, and instead use magic as an adventuring tool, with all your laws and principles basically relating to resources.  So, like, effigies and quality sacrifices are hard to come by, and man, do you want to use the few you've got on this spell here, or save 'em for later?

And of course there are plenty of other options.

If you can provide an illustration of what the players do that reflects your take on all this stuff, that would be great!  Right now I could see many different ways for players to potentially interface with the coolness you've got going on here, but I don't know which one(s) you're aiming for.

Ps,
-David

P.S. Just saw your example.  I think it's a good start, but I want to know what the player needs to do in order to yank life from one place and put it elsewhere!  Just say, "I do it?"  Roll a die?  Spend resources (money, points, etc.)?  Do the other players at the table (including the GM if there is one) have any role in this?

P.P.S. Please proofread before posting!  You have a bunch of sentences in your last few posts that are cut off!  "The use of Animus , animate an object"  I want to know what you meant to say there!

[lumpley]

Weaverchilde, well ... more like that, yes, but. You've still got substantial passive voice in there - "life energy may be bolstered through the expenditure of Essence," you say, and I'm like, bolstered by whom? - and you've confused player with character - you say "when a player wishes to heal someone (or even them selves)," but I presume you don't mean that Mitch can really heal himself by playing your game.

Would it help if I made a stab at it? If it wouldn't, ignore this:

"When a player wishes to have her character heal someone (even himself), she must have him wound another character in order to perform the healing magic. For each wound point her character manages to inflict upon his victim, she can have him restore a wound point to another character of his choice (including himself). She can also have him use Animus to animate an object (including a corpse), with each wound point he inflicted allowing him to give the object an hour's activity. Alternately, instead of having her character wound someone, she can have her character cripple his own vitality. In that case, for each point of her character's Essence she spends, she can have her character heal one wound point or give an object an hour's animation."

The stronger a distinction you can draw in your own mind between what the players say and do and what happens in the game's fiction, the better your game design will be.

-Vincent