[Rustbelt] A betrayal & shooting at angry mobs twice

[Krippler]

However, I do think that I need a clear system for the recovery of Injuries; B/S/T are pretty clear, but there's nothing for Injury.  I think that their healing rate would be slow, like Blood, but that there should be a way to mitigate the Challenge that they add.  F'rinstance, putting on splints or casts to mitigate broken bones.  Wilmer, how did you handle Benisto's crutch?

Oh, and I don't know if anyone's caught it yet, but stuff like Zeal and Depth on the Psyche components has no upward limit.  You could have a Woe with a Depth of 60, in theory.  ...Have I mentioned that 60 Tears will kill you?  [evil laugh]

He searched for someone to buy a crutch from, using his baseball bat as a cane.  He could walk without trouble as long as he had the crutch but if he had wanted to run he'd have to beat the challange of the injury. I think things that aren't outspoken like this works well, like how swords and knives on paper are as powerful but you can't hide a sword in your pocked and you can't use a knife if you want to stick it into some big cogwheels or something without having your hand caught within them.

Nope, I understood it as 20 was the upper limit since it says you should start with between 1 and 20 of those. It has occured to me you can paralyze someone by prodding at their Woe and it would be awesome if someone (prefferibly PC vs. another PC) used it to torture or kill someone.

[JoyWriter]

This process of tesselation has a really neat effect.  Not only does it lend a sense of continuity when the narrative is not a single, continuous story, but it has another effect that's a bit hard to explain, but I'll try.  See, everytime something is repeated, and someone recognizes it, they'll automatically recall the last time it cropped up.  The third time, they will remember both previous times, and so on.  Each repetition is not only colored by the previous ones, but it colors the previous ones as well, retroactively.  Each time it's repeated, it gains meaning.  You end up with whole that is greater than the sum of its parts.

That way of building history is interesting, familiar, but I never thought of using it by itself: In my worlds, every repetition is either my natural style or has some other form behind the link, but using it so bluntly is interesting: I use it as a clue, a hint of the underlying pattern that people can pick up, but in this form the pattern is on an emotional level, and encourages people to react to the world in that way. The tone becomes the structure.


But on a structural front, I have an idea that might help your mechanics: As far as I can tell the motivation gamble is not yet worth it, as nice as it is conceptually, the re-rolls don't feel to me as if they have much weight. Which is a shame because they could add another meaningful layer to your system. As you have said before people can just invest themselves because they would, rather than because the rules encourage it, but I'd like it if they had more strength. My solution? 2d6. Roll 1 dice + your motivation, and then pick two. Now obviously this means that people will try to do stuff that they are invested in, and so increase the gamble, which is a good effect, and the maximum power of that emotional investment is limited to 12. Now people can dodge the dilemma with traits, but I would make traits the same way, so if you use them for something, then you are risking them if you lose. Where's the rational for that? It's the rust! So people using some feature of themselves literally mark it for attention, and will have to fight for it at some point, or lose it. Hopefully this will expand the setting themes with minimal adjustment of the sequence of play. People would just mark down every time they lean on a trait and it gives way, and you'd use that as yet another story seed.

Now I know you are not a fan of resource calculations, in the accounting sense, but I hope you can see how a little change like this unifies things a little bit, even if it does forgo the decimal neatness of the d10 for the more common d6.
Basically I want to bring the power-gamer along with you, I can understand that hitting them straight off with arbitrary stats is like a crawlspace to heaven (perhaps a stretch in this context ), forcing them to leave behind their baggage of previous experience and "convert" to your way of doing things, but that ultimatum approach will put off wrangling people who might enjoy this for that very reason. I'd like to soften that a bit. So by making their traits produce woe by loss, with a depth equal to their bonus, the arbitrariness of everything but the ability scores can be removed. I actually like rolling those anyway, because it gives me something to start with, a random seed to fuel my creativity, making a past to fit.

[Marshall Burns]

JoyWriter,
That's an interesting idea, but if the dice mean that much, then what does the Push mean?
Fact of the matter is, I don't want to take the power-gaming number-cruncher with me; if he comes along, he leaves that stuff behind.  If he doesn't want to leave it behind, well, this game is not for him.

Now, there are tactics in this game, and they're incredibly important; I learned this the hard way, when my players took down a professional team of contract killers by 1.) seeing through the first one's cover, tranq'ing her, and administering a truth serum (!) when she woke up, and 2.) hacking her partner (who was armed with a .44 magnum) to death with a machete, aided by information they got from his partner and clever utilization of the surroundings (a dark, rapidly flooding cave, in this case).  But the tactics are all fiction-based (Wilmer's example of knife vs. sword is another good one) rather than numbers-based.  I'm very much cool with such tactics, but I don't want there to be a way for the players to play the numbers in a way that prevents their characters from suffering.  If it's possible at all to prevent your character from suffering, it should be entirely through means in-the-fiction--which I'm okay with because such maneuvers 1.) look cool and/or 2.) raise concerns and consequences in-the-fiction, which can always be twisted around to bite them in the ass.

Wilmer,

It has occured to me you can paralyze someone by prodding at their Woe and it would be awesome if someone (prefferibly PC vs. another PC) used it to torture or kill someone.

Damn, that is positively evil!  You are definitely cut out to GM this game

-Marshall

[Marshall Burns]

I have a new draft of the game up .  I'm gonna do it as an ashcan, and this is the first crack at that.  There's a new prep technique that I'm very excited about.

Also, for everyone who's read the thing:  those big chunks of fiction in the Setting chapter; are those useful?  Do they tell you anything you hadn't already figured out?  'Cause, well, they're taking up a lot of space, and I don't want them in there if they don't do anything.

-Marshall

[xdiox]

I have a new draft of the game up .  I'm gonna do it as an ashcan, and this is the first crack at that.  There's a new prep technique that I'm very excited about.

Also, for everyone who's read the thing:  those big chunks of fiction in the Setting chapter; are those useful?  Do they tell you anything you hadn't already figured out?  'Cause, well, they're taking up a lot of space, and I don't want them in there if they don't do anything.

-Marshall

Hey Marshall, I've been reading a Rustbelt posts with great interest. I haven't had a chance to playtest yet. You want to edit the link above, as it doesn't work. Though it can be figured out easily enough. Can't wait to read the new draft.
-Pete-

[Krippler]

I've read through it. I'm probably not the person to judge if the changes are good or not because it's the third or fourth time reading through and I've been fed lots of tips through you already. Some layouting is needed, like having the horror chart next to the monster section. I think it's hard to find stuff you need if you aren't familiar with the text or know exactly what you are looking for.

Btw here's the character sheet my players are using atm It's sized A5. We haven't been able to play for almost a month now due to disease and finals

[Marshall Burns]

Whoops.  Here's a better link:
http://www.angelfire.com/indie/btw/rustbelt4.htm

Yeah, Wilmer, it needs layout, which I haven't done yet

I'm thinking about putting in a section about Rustbelt slang; whaddya think?

[Krippler]

I'm not the right person to ask here either since I don't play it in english.

[Marshall Burns]

Oh, right, I keep forgetting about that.


Okay, so, I wrote up this post about the mechanics, then I decided not to post it because the tone is kindof not-ranty, but then I decided I should post it.  So, know this:  the tone is kindof ranty, but it's not directed at any particular people.  It's directed at an idea of a person, really, a straw-man.  And it's for my benefit as much as anyone else's, 'cause I've lost sight of this stuff a few times.  So, here goes:

THE REAL DEAL ON PSYCHE

I've had some feedback (here on the Forge, and through other channels) regarding Psyche & it's Dynamics that seems to be predicated on misunderstandings as to what it's supposed to be for.  These misunderstandings are probably just due to the fact that I could have explained it better in the first place.  Then I failed to explain it better in the second place because I've got this unpleasant quirk where I get really annoyed when I'm misunderstood, which leads to me getting flustered, which leads to me making less sense than I might.   Some people get it already, and some don't. So, this is me taking a breath, stepping back, and explaining it better in the third place.

I'm gonna start by comparing it to three mechanics in other games that it resembles in certain fashions but differs from in others.

#1:  Spiritual Attributes from TROS
Psyche is like SAs in that:

• it describes motivations and drives
• it provides bonuses to Effectiveness
• it is modulated by player choice

It is unlike SAs in that:

• its impact on Effectiveness is FAR more limited (for a reason, which I'll be getting to)
• its modulations are limited by branching causal relationships

CAVEAT:  I have not read TROS, but I've received plenty of advice in which people explained the gist of SAs to me.  There's probably more differences.

#2:  Keys from TSOY
Psyche is like Keys in that:

• it provides flags to aid the GM (and, potentially, other players) in crafting maximally relevant Bangs and situations
• players can add to it pretty-much at will

Psyche is unlike Keys in, well, a lot of minor ways, but primarily in that there is no mechanical "reward" for playing to it or breaking it.

#3:  Humanity from Sorcerer
Psyche is like Humanity in that:

• it provides handy ways to "keep score" when it comes to damnation, depravity, and redemption
• it imposes particular consequences for particular choices

Psyche is unlike Humanity in that:

• the morality that its components are symptoms of isdelineated on a per-player basis--that is, there is no global Humanity definition, and the equivalent is represented through the intersection of specific instances of Psyche components with the Tough Questions and the specific character's behavior
• no matter how low the character sinks, the player retains control (although the character probably ceases to be a protagonist at some point)

My first point
So that's the nature of Psyche:  a personality mechanic that is player authored, player modulated with rule-based causal constraints, slightly Effectiveness-enhancing, reflective of the character's decisions and moral state.

What's it for? The same thing as all of those mechanics above: to assist players in addressing Premise by calling attention to the issues.  However, on a functional level, it has its resemblances to those things, but it is not those things, nor is it intended to be.  It is something different.  It might even be something new, but I couldn't say for sure because I haven't read enough games.

My second point
In the game, the Rust is trying to destroy you.  It comes at you body and soul.  Its mandate is "Be corrupted, or be killed."  You can defy it, but you cannot defeat it; the most you can do is choose which parts of you it eats.  Do you let it eat your body, or your soul?  Which parts of your body?  Which parts of your soul?  In what circumstances?  Why?  That's a wordy way of stating the game's Premise.

That is why its impact on Effectiveness is so limited.  The fundamental engine of the game is to demand that you sacrifice something, then give you choices so that you must judge which sacrifice you can live with.  The GM is instructed to use the Psyche bits as his guide in creating relevant adversity and opportunity, so that you (that is, your character) end up in situations that reveal the limitations and problems inherent in your personal tenets. 

As a very extreme example, take the Limit "I would never hurt a child" and pair it with a situation where you must either hurt a child or face grave injury.  If you choose to face the injury instead, your Limit will boost your Effectiveness, but only a little.  It only does that much because of the causal idea that it would motivate the character, who would thus perform better.  It doesn't do more because, well, where's the sacrifice if it did?  There's no choice; you would simply refuse to hurt the child, get a whopping pile of Effectiveness for your trouble, and make it out with little to no injury.

Some people might be asking, "Well, what's wrong with that?"  Nothing, really, except it's not what I want.  Any time something is on the line that counts, there must be sacrifice: that is my number one design goal with this puppy.

So, here's where I need help
If I haven't turned you off with all this carrying-on, lemme tell you what the problem is.  I'll do it by example:  Courtney's character Kitt had the Limit "Will not resort to violence."  They were under assault, when Mule Ear Joe handed Kitt a shotgun to shoot the enemy with, which he did.  He resorted to violence.  Had Courtney either:
1. squirmed over the decision (or at least roleplayed Kitt squirming over it), or
2. been like, "I don't give a fuck, I shoot the bastard!" with a dangerous look in her eyes, or
3. refused to shoot the enemy despite (or because of) the consequences,
I would have been elated.  Instead, she wasn't really concerned, and I was disappointed.

See where I'm going with this?  Where's the sacrifice if you don't care about the thing you're losing?  There isn't one, of course.

And there's the problem:  how do I convince the players to CARE, without turning Psyche into Spiritual Attributes, Keys, Humanity, or some derivative thereof?  For the record, I am in love with the mechanics of Psyche, and I don't want to change them into something else.  I think Psyche's mechanics work.  I don't think this is a mechanical issue.  I think it is a social issue, and I really don't know how to tackle it.

So, any bright ideas?
-Marshall

[Krippler]

I will never resort to violence isn't a very emotional limit since it's so easy to get into a situation where it is absolutely justified. Burning a book is much harder to justify since you won't be in a situation like "someone is coming at you with a gun, if you hurry and burn the book you will survive". You should have set him up in a situation like, I dunno, he had to hide and there was a really noicy kid with him and his only option to shut the kid up would be smacking it hard since it would struggle if he just tried to shut its mouth.

Next time someone's making a character I'll try look them in the eyes and say "what would your character never ever do?". I think that would make them think in the right direction.

[Marshall Burns]

You should have set him up in a situation like, I dunno, he had to hide and there was a really noicy kid with him and his only option to shut the kid up would be smacking it hard since it would struggle if he just tried to shut its mouth.

*slaps forehead* Dammit, I had a perfect opportunity to do that very thing in that very scene and it never occurred to me.

Next time someone's making a character I'll try look them in the eyes and say "what would your character never ever do?". I think that would make them think in the right direction.

...yes.  YES.

[jag]

James,

Yeah, the function of the two is pretty much the same.  But I think that the Color is different, and I kinda want to preserve that.  I like it when System creates Color.  I'm not seeing what the benefit of combining them would be.  Which isn't to say that I wouldn't listen if you tried to show me.
(Oh, and they aren't obligatory; you don't have to have both, or even either, when starting out; it's just a sort of conjectural recommendation to start with one of each).

-Marshall

Sorry to take so long to get back to you.  I've been on the move (and in fact am writing you this from taiwan).  The more I've thought about this, the more i think i understand my objection/suggestion better.  Here's my attempt at a reframing:

The rustbelt is all about the push.  All other mechanics just support it.  The attributes, for example, just give a framework for the push to happen.  The psyche gives you a reason to push.  In psyche, both Vice and Faith can be viewed as things that help you get by in the rustbelt -- things that let you pretend everything isn't as horrible as it is, that let you push away the pain.  But using them causes them to consume you, and ignoring them causes them to hurt you.

My proposal is (now) not so much that they are the same thing, but they are just two examples of a much wider, and very cool, mechanism.  I think there are many aspects of a person's psyche that fit this general pattern (gives you a reason to push, helps temporarily shield you from the horror) that either are between a Vice and a Faith, or don't fit into either.  Examples:

* A person who thinks The Guilty Will Be Punished.  On one hand, this is a Faith (in righteousness, in justice, in order, in law).  On the other hand, it can also be a vice (wherein the punishment itself gives the character pleasure, and is what the character seeks).  This would be an awesome Psyche for a rustbelt character to have... it just doesn't neatly fit into either of these categories.

* Junker who loses himself in his tinkerings.  That's how he makes sense out of it all, how he puts a bit of order into his life.  Threats to his machines are triggers to him, and losing himself in his work calms him.  Without them, he'd grow depressed and wither away.

These are just examples off the top of my head, and i'm sure someone can come up with better ones.  But the point, i think, is decent: You want psyche to give motivation for players to push.  There are more ways to do that than just Vice and Faith, and I worry that spelling those out as the only two choices puts an unnecessary restriction on the players.  Really, anything that the character really cares about should be valid, and if the mechanics were identical, then the player doesn't have to worry about which category his psyche fits in to, and can just worry about what it means to his character.

James

[jag]

So, here's where I need help
If I haven't turned you off with all this carrying-on, lemme tell you what the problem is.  I'll do it by example:  Courtney's character Kitt had the Limit "Will not resort to violence."  They were under assault, when Mule Ear Joe handed Kitt a shotgun to shoot the enemy with, which he did.  He resorted to violence.  Had Courtney either:
1. squirmed over the decision (or at least roleplayed Kitt squirming over it), or
2. been like, "I don't give a fuck, I shoot the bastard!" with a dangerous look in her eyes, or
3. refused to shoot the enemy despite (or because of) the consequences,
I would have been elated.  Instead, she wasn't really concerned, and I was disappointed.

See where I'm going with this?  Where's the sacrifice if you don't care about the thing you're losing?  There isn't one, of course.

And there's the problem:  how do I convince the players to CARE, without turning Psyche into Spiritual Attributes, Keys, Humanity, or some derivative thereof?  For the record, I am in love with the mechanics of Psyche, and I don't want to change them into something else.  I think Psyche's mechanics work.  I don't think this is a mechanical issue.  I think it is a social issue, and I really don't know how to tackle it.

So, any bright ideas?
-Marshall

I'm just throwing this out there, but if during character creation players are required to fill in certain blanks, it's quite possible that they will have to fill in blanks that they haven't thought much or care much about.  Although i don't know, it seems like the player of Kitt might have filled that in because it seemed like a good idea at the time, but it never became (or ceased to be) something that they thought of as very integral to Kitt.  It ties into the more general problem that you can't know your character when you create it, because you haven't spent any time with it -- it evolves and becomes more real over time.  Then, the choices you've made before (especially if they weren't ones that felt critical at the time) might not seem as applicable.

When Kitt violated the limit, maybe it wasn't a big deal to him -- and maybe he'd even forgotten about it!

[Marshall Burns]

Hey, James, I was beginning to worry that I ran you off by disagreeing with you at every turn

You are entirely correct in your assessment that it's all about the Push, and that Psyche gives you a reason to Push.  (Although I think it's important to not neglect Giving and the Price; the Price gives you a reason to Give, and therein lies the choice)

...but it's looking like I'm gonna disagree again, though.  But this time it's a small one, and just a difference of perception.  I see "The Guilty Shall Be Punished" as a Faith, until it crosses the line and the guy enjoys dishing out the "punishment," at which point I see it totally becoming a Vice.  Granted, there's not a rule for that, but there should be.  And the example of the junker I see as a straight-up Vice.  I'm not really seeing the overlap or it-doesn't-fit-any-of-these.

Maybe it's the terms "Faith" and "Vice"?  Maybe there's something better to call them?

There are more ways to do that than just Vice and Faith, and I worry that spelling those out as the only two choices puts an unnecessary restriction on the players.

Hang on, all of the Psyche bits provide motivation.  Woe comes with an implicit drive to be absolved or redeemed, and Limits come with implicit drives to keep to them.  Or, at least, that's the intention.  The only special thing about the Coping mechanism is that it basically enables you to ignore Grizzled checks or other cases where the Price is in Tears, because it basically counts as an Outburst.  Or, at least, that's what I meant by it; that might or might not actually come across in the text.

[jag]

Fair enough.  It works the way you want, and you have less urge for system-simplification than i do.  I'll just close with the statement that, were Vice and Faith mechanically identical, you'd have at once:

1. A more streamlined system.
2. No need for a rule to switch Faith to Vice -- you'd just switch the name when you felt you crossed the boundary.
3. Automatically accounted for the future clever player who really wants a coping mechanism that he doesn't feel is either a Faith or a Vice.

But in general, it looks good.  Only playtesting will reveal how Psyche will evolve in the future...

James