Anachronistic SciFi - the beginings of an idea

[Bob McNamee]

One thing to support some of the low-tech justification... if probability manipulation and control exists, then some of the standard physics stuff that could lead to cars and such just might not ever be reliable enough to trust on any large scale civilzation use... as opposed to low tech which developed along with these manipulations... maybe only certain techs...like the anti grav sleds are reliable enough.

an idea anyway,
Bob McNamee

[damion]

Mike:My idea was just to get away from people saying 'We just gas the supersoldier dude or hold him underwater or something.'

Here is my setting ideas:

Long ago humanity spread accross the galaxy. All possible habitable planets were colonized(There wern't that many). Terraforming made a few more, but it was expensive. No planet other than earth was found to contain native life. Earth life was always imported to each new planet. No-one ever managed a method of FTL communication. Thus, a FTL drone network took info between planets.
The tech involved means it would take many years to launch an expedition to another galaxy.  None ever reported back.
Since time immorial technology had always improved at a pretty good rate. Eventually, this rate slowed, and then stopped. Some theories involved said that there were some laws of the univers that couldn't be broken, no matter how hard you tried. Other said that technology had gone beyond the range of the human brain to grasp it. A scientist had to spend most of their life learning, despite all attempts to speed the process. By the time they learn enough to understand the cutting edge, they were past their prime. Mathematicians came up with explanions based in chaos theory and something called 'infinite complexity' or the idea that some things could change faster  than our ability to understand them.
Oh, technolgy still advanced. Old ideas could be applied to new things, things could be done in better ways. But there were no new breakthroughs for a LONG time. This produced the death of learning. What's the point if theres nothing new to discover? Some people still became scientists, but it became rarer and rarer as time went on. In some places intellectuals came to be viewed as drain on society, as they hadn't produced anything in thousands of years. Small groups and individuals perservered, but they lacked the resources to do anything really new.
Eventually, all the original planets started getting used up. Their resources ran out. Even with recylcing programs, they still ran out.
Also the disasters happened. (Actually they happend all through history). One planet was pushed to far, it's climate fell in chaos, alternating between an ice age and massive deserts over a several hundread year period. All life on it died, aside from artificial research stations. One was nuked so hard it started a chain reaction in the atmosphere. One was destroyed in an asteroid mining accident. (They tried to bring the rock back to the planet, you figure it out). Plague got others. There were the usual wars, even a Luddite revolution at one point. Most planets have some scars, like a large area still radioactive from a nuclear accident, or a
remenat of the time the climate became unstable.

As their resources got used up some planets were just abandoned. One even got hit by a nova.
Even the Unobtanioum deposits used to power FTL vessels started to run out. Communication became less frequent, due to the increased expense of the drone network. Few planets would have all the resources required for advanced tech, and as interplanatary transport got more expensive a planet might let some techs slide in favor of more useful ones. A few key technologies were lost when all the people with knowledge of them died.
Small amounts of Unobtanium can be synthesised with immensie amounts of energy, but only a few planets could actually support this. In one case, so much energy was drawn out of a planets core that  that the core solidified and shrunk , collapsing the crust on top of it. These planets were favorite targets in wartime. Sometimes attacks did more damage than intended.

Tech got concentrated into the ruling class. The started rationing it, as high technology requires a large resource base to produce, and that was shrinking. Planets started getting a 'ration' of usefull devices, usually stuff that would make them more productive/ efficient, or would pacify the populace(like VR-entertainment).
 
Calibrium tech was relativly well understood, and had the advantage that it's wasn't used up when it was processed. Also these warriors didn't do TO much peramant damage to the limited resources on a planet when they fought. Thus, it became more dominant.

Sorry, that came out longer than I intended, but some parts may be usefull.

[amiel]

Two base thoughts on the low-tech high tech argument:
1 Some tech can't be imported by ftl...it just disintegrates. Also, no guns are allowed in starships for obvious reasons.
2 Corrolary to the who cares option: it sounds like the basis for the question is very exploration of setting; if players are making setting as they go...see what I'm getting at here?

[Bailywolf]

Well, Herbert's universe takes the shape it does from two major sources- the jahad which eliminated any thinking machine (and any technology expressly dependent on thinking machines), and the planer shield effect whcih made conventional weapons useless- and after a few thousand years, they fell into general disuse (spring dart and maula pistol aside).

I propose Oddsmithing- a highliy evolved capacity inherent in sapient minds to alter or read probability.  Like Nivin's "psychic luck" seen in his Known Space but conscious.  A warrior Oddsman can- with minimal effort- warp the path of ranged fire because such vectors and things are tenuous and- a slight variation in degree of aim at the point of fire can mean a miss by inches or miles at the point of impact.  

He can also react instinctively to the actions around him- fighting as if one beat ahead of his enemies, dodging blows before the fall.  Against enemies with no ability to Oddsmith (most of the pleabian classes certainly) he could be nigh invulnerable.  Combine this well honed mind-body talent with the highest quality weapons & light unobtrusive armor and one man could devistate many thousands.

You can't poison him, drown him, sufficate him etc- he simply avoids your intended attacks by reacting to the probability of their success.  Without your own Oddsmithers to couter him, your technology will fail (complex as it is) and your armies will snarl into confused masses as every possible accident and battlefield folly befalls you.  

What is left are eliet units of Oddsman Comandos or Duelists who fight their esoteric battles both on the material plane, but also on the methphysical plane of quantum possibility.

On a grander scale- planetery politics- the competing influences of the various power blocs stable of dedicated oddsmiths counters out...but if one factions oddsman defected...or were assassinated...

Some facitons will treat their oddsmithers with nigh worship and privelege, others like most valued employes, still others like nothing but slaves or human merchandise.  The Empire will condition its oddsmiths for total loyality...and various training schools will instill similar ethical conditioning.  

Any profession can benifit from a dedicated Oddsmith- an oddsmith surgeon can expect his treatments to work as well as possible.  An oddsmith enginere can see his machines go for years without service.

And perhaps there are a rare few- part prophet, part mesia, part revolutionary- who can apply their powers to ALL things- from controling the reaction of a crowd, to the weather, to the harvest, to the function of a FTL drive....



Naturaly evolved living creatures are far more resistant to direct oddsmith interference- they have huge redundancy built in by millions of years of random mutation.  Innefecient, but flexible.  Most mechanisms fall sway to an oddsman's hex with disturbing ease.  When a Gravtank can be made to founder and explode among your own troops with a bit of focused attention from the enemy's Jinxers, those lancers astridse riding raptors look much better...

[Le Joueur]

He can also react instinctively to the actions around him- fighting as if one beat ahead of his enemies, dodging blows before the fall.  Against enemies with no ability to Oddsmith (most of the pleabian classes certainly) he could be nigh invulnerable.  Combine this well honed mind-body talent with the highest quality weapons & light unobtrusive armor and one man could devistate many thousands.

That reminds me of a question I never get an answer for.  If your squad is up against a Jedi, why don't you coordinate/time your fire or use a field effect weapon?  I mean there's only so much space between a hail of bullets (imagine an Oddsmith trying to walk dry through a heavy rain) and where can you 'hide' from a concussion wave (trinitrotoluene is pretty low tech)?  (Note; this originally occurred to me trying to Nemesis-think versus Spider-man's 'spider sense' dodging.)

Now I'm not trying to poke holes it what sounds like a really intriguing concept, it's just you're out-thinking yourselves.  Go too far with this and you'll rationalize away all the good stuff.  I mean what I think we're talking about here is that old 'sense of wonder' stuff.  What made Herbert's stuff cool had little to do with his rationalizations for the 'mix' of technology, it was the consistency of 'cool.'  If you spend a lot of time concluding why the technology is mixed the way it is, won't you lose track of the 'buzz' the inspiration gave you?  I say go far enough to catch the 'glaring errors' and then stop.  Bolting on rationale after rationale will only make a clear idea mediocre; stick with the good stuff.

Just a word from someone who's overdesigned a few things to death.

Fang Langford

[Bailywolf]

That reminds me of a question I never get an answer for.  If your squad is up against a Jedi, why don't you coordinate/time your fire or use a field effect weapon?  I mean there's only so much space between a hail of bullets (imagine an Oddsmith trying to walk dry through a heavy rain) and where can you 'hide' from a concussion wave (trinitrotoluene is pretty low tech)?  (Note; this originally occurred to me trying to Nemesis-think versus Spider-man's 'spider sense' dodging.)

Now I'm not trying to poke holes it what sounds like a really intriguing concept, it's just you'reF out-thinking yourselves.  Go too far with this and you'll rationalize away all the good stuff.  I mean what I think we're talking about here is that old 'sense of wonder' stuff.  What made Herbert's stuff cool had little to do with his rationalizations for the 'mix' of technology, it was the consistency of 'cool.'  If you spend a lot of time concluding why the technology is mixed the way it is, won't you lose track of the 'buzz' the inspiration gave you?  I say go far enough to catch the 'glaring errors' and then stop.  Bolting on rationale after rationale will only make a clear idea mediocre; stick with the good stuff.

Just a world from someone who's overdesigned a few things to death.

Fang Langford

Good points.  It is allways possible to 'what if' an idea to death- we gamers have been trained by years pf D&D to whore for every possible advantage- I am one of the worst I freely admit.  What I would like to find is a scheme which remains internaly consistent- so someone reviewing a future game derived from it doesn't snidely call the whole concept into question, and so I am satisfied with how things hold together.  I hate disjointed settings which fail to hold of to standards of common sense.

The way I forsee an warrior Oddsmith's defesnive powers is two fold- he actively evades the most dangerous probabilities, and also actively warps and distorts others.  He not only moves in such a way as to reduce the chance that a rain drop will hit him, but also subtly alters the paths of the drops when they fall so that they are already highly unlikly to hit him.

Hell, this is a freaking brilliant image...it sommons up all sorts of cool wuxia kung-fu training scenes- "When you can walk throught he rain untouched by a single drop, then you will be ready for learn my Aspicious Crane Kick technique..."

And I also see oddsman warriors, duelists, and assassins really never fighting the bulk of an enemy's troops personaly- they would infiltrate and eliminate enemy leadship.  On rare (and likely famous) occasions, oddsman may be killed or defeated by mundane- if brilliant- strategies...but these will be the rare exception.

I also see a whole branch of hand-crafted technology which enhances or mimics oddsmith powers...but the technology is so terribly unlikely to exist it has to be constructed by an Oddsman Master Artaficer who can warp the odds so with his crimps and files and routers he can construct a device (I'm thinking etched crystals, polished brass clockwork, and whiring mainsprings- mechanical devices) which defies the odds in very specific ways.

Armor Clock- a device the size of a chunky pocket watch with a 5 minute mainspring.  It generates a defensive odds warping field within a user's natural hypermathmatical aura which acts to warp the course of projectiles and turn careless melee blows.  It must be key wound when exausted, but can remain wound for a week without loosing tension in its mainspring.

Probability Engine- an enormous construction resembling a clockwork egg a hundred meters tall, and filled with man-seze hunks of etched crystal, planes and rings of gold and brass and silver, and controlled by dozens of polished levers.  it is driven by a thick shaft- like a generator's turbine- running from the ship's atomic pile.  When fully spun, it generates a point of infinite probability- all things are infinitly and equaly possible- and at that moment, a special conditioned Oddsmith Navigator can 'flip' the odds on the ship just a hair, and suddenly it becomes a 0 point certainity that the ship was where it was, and a 100 point certainity that it is where it is intended to be.

Jink Dart- a disposable weapon the size of a small throwing knife with a weighted, plunger-tipped end and a tiny mainspring and mechanism.  When thorwn (or projected with a spring-bow) the dart warps the probability fields surrouding the target- the result is a brief run of extreme bad luck lasting seconds to minutes depending on how much conscious control the victim has over his own hypermathmatical field.

[Matt Machell]

Probability Engine- an enormous construction resembling a clockwork egg a hundred meters tall, and filled with man-seze hunks of etched crystal, planes and rings of gold and brass and silver, and controlled by dozens of polished levers.  it is driven by a thick shaft- like a generator's turbine- running from the ship's atomic pile.  When fully spun, it generates a point of infinite probability- all things are infinitly and equaly possible- and at that moment, a special conditioned Oddsmith Navigator can 'flip' the odds on the ship just a hair, and suddenly it becomes a 0 point certainity that the ship was where it was, and a 100 point certainity that it is where it is intended to be.

Hmm, shades of the Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy here, with the old Infinite Improbability Drive (Not that that's necessarily a bad thing).

On another note, while reading this thread the other day the word Ionclad arrived in my head as a cool way to refer to starships in an anachronistic sci-fi setting.

Matt

[Balbinus]

Well, Herbert's universe takes the shape it does from two major sources- the jahad which eliminated any thinking machine (and any technology expressly dependent on thinking machines), and the planer shield effect whcih made conventional weapons useless- and after a few thousand years, they fell into general disuse (spring dart and maula pistol aside).

This came up on rpg.net recently, where the (I think correct) consensus was that the Dune universe only worked as a result of strong social controls.

The shields actually stop very little in terms of potential weapons, they certainly don't lead to the necessity of swords and duelling.  On rpg.net three or four posters in as many minutes came up with anti-shield weapons of greater lethality than swords without really trying and without breaking Dune canon.

Save for one thing, they all broke the cultural rules set out in Dune.  The key to Dune isn't technological, it's cultural.  Same with all these kind of settings, if we don't use stuff it's because we choose not to.

This is a nice idea, but it sounds extremely close to Fading Suns.  Couldn't the same result be obtained just by dropping the psionics and theurgy from that game?

[damion]

he way I forsee an warrior Oddsmith's defesnive powers is two fold- he actively evades the most dangerous probabilities,
                     and also actively warps and distorts others. He not only moves in such a way as to reduce the chance that a rain drop will hit
                     him, but also subtly alters the paths of the drops when they fall so that they are already highly unlikly to hit him.

You could probably work this into a kind of clairvoyance. It's it's hard to catch an OddSmith in a trap because they will forsee the trap and avoid it. This could be a wonderway of building tension. All the OddSmiths who die in combat did so because they felt a 'bad vibe', but ignored it. Of course, some have ignored it and survived... I see this a bit like Yoda's dire prophecy in Episode V.


I can see this as a great storytelling tool. One way to do this would be to warn OddSmith's before they go into a situation of where they could get hurt(Possibly this could be a roll, or maybe not). Basicly, if they don't get a 'bad vibe' befor hand, just narrate the combat, as you know they are gonna win. The OddSmith ability gives 3 results. good/don't know/bad. A bad basicly means it's a trap. Don't Know means it's normal. You could loose,be hurt, but you won't die. A good means just narrate thecombat.

Another idea would be OddSmiths could have a signature invulnerable shield(or 2). Kinda like Capt America or Wonder Woman. They manage to block anything. This also gets around the 'fire pattern' attacks.  Another idea would be that they wear armor of invulnerable plates in combat.This wouldn't have to cover all of them, just enought that the probablity bending could arrange for only the armored portions to be hit. One could picture one walking forward, slowly moving just enough to have their armored portions be hit. This also avoids the need to have any unseeminlgy Jedi-like jumping around.  


Also, I can image an army attacking an oddsmith of having a high rate of 'friendly fire' incidents, which might make troops reluctant to do so, since they have a pretty good chance of hitting their friends.

[Bailywolf]

This came up on rpg.net recently, where the (I think correct) consensus was that the Dune universe only worked as a result of strong social controls.

The shields actually stop very little in terms of potential weapons, they certainly don't lead to the necessity of swords and duelling.  On rpg.net three or four posters in as many minutes came up with anti-shield weapons of greater lethality than swords without really trying and without breaking Dune canon.

Save for one thing, they all broke the cultural rules set out in Dune.  The key to Dune isn't technological, it's cultural.  Same with all these kind of settings, if we don't use stuff it's because we choose not to.

This is a nice idea, but it sounds extremely close to Fading Suns.  Couldn't the same result be obtained just by dropping the psionics and theurgy from that game?

I would say that social controls represent a measure of the forces which shaped the environemnt in Dune- the Great Convention (is that the name of it?) in addition to strictly outlawing atomics limited full scale war (as did the extraordinary costs for shipping military material on Guild highliners).  

The planer shield is a perfect counter to atomics, projectiles, missles, cannon, etc.  But the shield itself is countered by the lasgun...  Shields are remarkably effective- and lasguns are cantankerous, expensive, and prone to going off like a nuke at the worst moment.  And several of the things I myself suggested to counter shields wouldn't even work.

Technology is always a cultural artafact- but practicality also plays a role.  I don't think simply banning firearms would have had the sort of overreaching effects seen in DUNE...the absolute counter represented by the shield also plays a role.  

Why am I typing on a Windows based computer right now when vastly superior systems are available?  Why do I drive an internal-combustion SUV (a little one)?  Why do I lust after a Sony Clie NR70V despite the fact that I don't need a new palm?  Cultural and practical forces shape technology in equal-and often indistinguishable- measure.    


I never much cared for Fading Suns- I don't like the 'society in decline' or the 'last act of the morality play' or whatever angsty justification is given for an archaic society in a scifi setting therein.  I wanted a sociaty which is vital, rich, and complex without descending uneringly into oblivion- the damn suns are fading.  If all I wanted gloom, I'd play Vampire In Space.


Somehow limiting the sort of pre- and post- transhumanist technology which would lead to a Transhuman Space scifi in such a way as to be believable...without falling to what Fang rightly warns about- justifying the thing to death.

Basicly, I want a plausable reason for a knife duel between two noble scions to settle matters of galactic import- without just saying 'its tradition'.  And even if it just comes down to cultural justifications- they have to arise from plausable history.  DUNE has both- Jahad and Shields.  With the Oddsmithing thingy, I have my shield analog (as well as the native groovy weird powers for PC level characters)... now a plausable Jahad analog...

One thing I have considered is a cyclic galactic history-  Expansion, loss of coheesiveness, diversification, conquest, expansion, etc.  With periods of diaspora and rediscovery, things could be quite diverse.

With the rise in Oddsmithing, technology became increasingly unreliable- if a device operated at a level below the power of people to percieve- an electronic circute for example- it was very easy to jinx into failure.  As war spreads, the old technololgy crumbled leaving whole worlds in chaos- what would happen to us if all our computers suddenly failed?   Chaos, mass death, barbarism.  

Now do it on a galactic scale.

With this mass Dark Age still part of recorded history, a return to the old technology is unlikely.

[Walt Freitag]

what would happen to us if all our computers suddenly failed?

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[Matt Snyder]

Bailywolf -- do you need an analog to the Butlerian Jihad? If my hazy memory of Dune serves, doesn't that basically explain away computers, or more importantly A.I. (as well as imply a cutural distrust of that tech)? If that's the case, then your Oddsmithing idea serves both purposes just fine!

First, it becomes the slightly weird (and altogether cool) shield tecnology. Second, it serves to spoil any chance a powerful computer, or even A.I. has at working properly. All an Oddsmith has to do is alter the quantum computer's processes just this way or that and PRESTO, computers are untrustworth and unreliable. There may be a cultural reason attached to this as well, but Oddsmithing has a nice way of summing up both ideas.

I think that concept of Oddsmithing is really the crucial element of the idea as presented thus far. It makes for interesting Player Characters (complete w/ kewl powerz!), and it jives well with the premise of tradition vs. dynamism. Oddsmiths seem clearly able to buck the system, and throw tradition on its ear.

With that in mind, I offer up the following thoughts on Oddsmiths.

First, what do they do? What is the actual scope of their powers? That is, by saying they can affect probability through subtle, psychic (?) manipulation of quantum mechanics, then that's tantamount to saying they can do anything. I think that's too extreme (and too vague), and I'm sure most folks agree. So, what, if any limitations do they and their powers have?

I suggest that it not be left open to the "anything goes" route. I don't think they should be one-man armies, nor do I think they should be effectively Mage: the Ascension in space, capable of altering reality. Instead, they should be subtle and unusual ... and mortal. Rather than being abe to do "anything" I think they should be quirky and easily recognizable to players. That is, I think their powers should be a set of abilities that have their own quirks and identity, rather than another excuse to have psi-blasts and telepathy.

If we keep pointing to Dune, then we can use many examples -- the Bene Gesserit seem to have their own unique and customary powers, as do Guild members and the assassins whose name escapes me at this point. (Wasn't there a groups of assassin clones that "resurrected" Duncan Idaho as a clone in the second book, which is as far as I got in the series? Been a while)

It might be interesting to have various specialty Oddsmiths. There might be various playable "classes" like Duelists, Diplomats, Mentats, etc.

Oh, one last radical idea to pose, even though I'm reluctant to suggest it because I like the emphasis on the human thus presented. The radical idea is that Oddsmiths are complex A.I. quantum computers. They can inhabit anything from a star cruiser's mainframe to a anthropomorphic clone. They'd still have Oddsmith powers, but they'd also be lots of fun to play in various forms -- a space battle when assuming the role of cruiser, a spy-game when disguised as a clone and so on. Just thought I'd throw the idea out there. Maybe it's still possible, that neural-net quantum computers are one "other" kind of Oddsmiths that often act as rivals and enemies for the human Oddsmith PCs.

[Bailywolf]

Hey Matt.

Good points.  

The way I imagined oddsmithing to work is the natural aptitude must be present to develope the abilities at all- and to some extens all oddsmiths can tweak everything slightly in their favor.  But they recieve extensive conditioning/training which links their abilities to specific skills.  So you have Oddsman Warriors, Oddsman Physicians, Oddsman Navigators, Oddsman Artificers etc.  

From a game perspective, I thought the power itself would be 'attached' to specific skills- depending on the final shape of the game mechanics.  

An Oddsman Duelist might have a core skillset of 5 skills (totally pulling this out of the air here):  Awareness, Melee Combat, Unarmed Combat, Reflexes & Evasion.  When using these skills, the player gets certain fairly extreme 'tweaks' to alter the success or failure of each one.  By tweaking Evasion, he can become superhumanly hard to hit.  By tweaking Melee Combat he can land impossible blows.

A person who could control probability across the board would be a prophet... or god.

[Matt Snyder]

Ahh, very good, that's what I was getting at, I think. That all Oddsmiths would have "core competencies' that generally make them special, but they all also have emphasis on specialties like Dueling, as you suggest.

For some reason I can't edit my post above, but I meant to say in one paragraph:

If we keep pointing to Dune, then we can use many examples -- the Bene Gesserit seem to have their own unique and customary powers, as do Guild members and the assassins whose name escapes me at this point. (Wasn't there a groups of assassin clones that "resurrected" Duncan Idaho as a clone in the second book, which is as far as I got in the series? Been a while)

Oh, another thing, though I think we've mentioned it. Since dueling keeps popping up -- knife fighting or sword duels would be among the ideal ways of fighting because the Oddsmiths affect the simplest technologies the least, correct? That is, knives with no moving parts are far more difficult to "deflect" and disrupt than lasblasters, correct?[/quote]

[Bob McNamee]

An ideal term for creatures that can effect or defend again Odds powers would be... "Oddities"

Bob McNamee