The Libertines: Affliction, Addiction, Madness and Ennui

[Brennen Reece]

Will and I are working on a game about degenerate 18th century noblemen who fight evil out of boredom. It's really about fighting or embracing one's personal demons, and the consequences thereof. It's a bit like Lord Byron, Vampire Hunter.

I don't have much worked out mechanically at this point and I'm fishing for ideas.

This is what I do have. Characters possess 4 boons which are countered by 4 matched burdens:

Physique vs. Affliction
Virtue vs. Addiction
Reason vs. Madness
Passion vs. Ennui

There will be a list of descriptors that players will choose for each boon and burden. I don't know whether this will be a dice pool or a bonus to a single die, or some combination of the two.

For any conflict, the player will roll both boon and burden and gets to choose which roll is played. The choice is reflected in the narrative.

If the burden roll is chosen, the burden will gain one point.

If the boon roll is lower than the burden, and the player chooses to play the boon to his disadvantage, the burden is lessened by one point.

Once the burden overtakes the boon, the character is "retired" from play. This is narrated in a fashion appropriate to the burden.


An alternate idea:

The player may use bonus dice from the burden to add to the boon.

For each die used, the player must roll the boon vs the burden. If the burden wins, the player must narrate a scene where the burden features heavily, and must also take a point.


Any input is welcome. Be brutal, and make me think about this!

[Double King]

re "Passion vs. Ennui"

Nobody loves a good ennui more than I, however i wonder if Derangement/Vice isn't a more actionable polemic?  Aside from that, sold.  i'll cut you a check today.  i want this game.

[Brennen Reece]

In response Derangement/Vice, it might help if I give a few examples of some of the traits one can assign to Passion/.

Examples of passion might include:

I am in love
I have a family
I am part of a community
I believe in something greater than myself
I am fighting for a cause
etc...

Examples of Ennui might include:

I often have trouble sleeping due to philosophical contemplation
I doubt the religious tradition in which I was raised
I contemplate suicide
I have attempted suicide
I take the dangerous path whenever possible
I am continually listless
I feel that my life has no meaning
etc...

Each of the bonds/boons will have similar lists of statements.

It might be interesting to score the stats based on a Strongly Agree/Agree/Neither Agree nor Disagree/Disagree/Strongly Disagree questionnaire for each of these statements.

[SpoDaddy]

Have you decided yet on whether to go with a zero sum model or not for the Boon/Burden meters?  Fading Suns and Pendragon are two games off the top of my head that you might want to check out for ideas.

[Brennen Reece]

Have you decided yet on whether to go with a zero sum model or not for the Boon/Burden meters?  Fading Suns and Pendragon are two games off the top of my head that you might want to check out for ideas.

I'm on the fence about it so far. My initial idea was to distribute a certain number of points among the Burdens and then the Boons would be the 10 minus the appropriate burden. It might also be fun to just roll a d4 for each one...

My co-designer is coming over tomorrow to work with me on writing an ideal play session, and I suppose we'll end up solving a lot of design issues as a result.

Thanks for the tips on Fading Suns and Pendragon. I'm not familiar with either except by name.

[Brennen Reece]

Andy K has a really cool hack of L5R + PTA + TSoY over at Story Games. I really like his idea for three tracks for "what's best in life" with five check boxes each. Every time you do something that drives you toward one of those goals, you check a box. When all the boxes are filled, you get to advance in something.

Examples might include:

Revenge
Sex
Wealth
Power

[Marshall Burns]

Wait, if I wanted to play as Lord Byron, where would "I conceived a child with my half-sister" go?

[Brennen Reece]

Wait, if I wanted to play as Lord Byron, where would "I conceived a child with my half-sister" go?

Dammit, Marshall...why can't you live near me so you can play in my group? You've got to be as weird as I am.

It's a good question. I'll run it by the committee.

[Marshall Burns]

Hehe.  Some day I'll have real internet, and perhaps we could play over the web then.

But, back on topic, I'm thinking that "Addiction" isn't really the way to go; I'd say you need a more general category for sins that would include addiction, as well as incest and things of that nature.  "Addiction" just doesn't fit on Lord Byron, because he wasn't addicted to anything (at least according to the only biography I've read of him; it's possible it was incomplete).  The other categories are straight-on for Byron, though; you've got one for his club foot, and even for his involvement in the fight for Greek independence from the Turks. 

Although, he was a really good shot with a pistol as well; where do I put that one?  Is that close enough to Physique?

[Marshall Burns]

Thought about it a little more, and I'd like to suggest something in the vein of Debauchery, Degeneration, or Decadence in place of Addiction. 

[Abkajud]

First off: major, MAJOR props for using the 19th century. Wow. I can't get over how exciting that is! Also, to echo Double King
Well, "addiction", I agree, could use a replacement. I was immediately struck by that, thinking, "Are we all going to be Johnny Depp's character in From Hell?"
I should hope not. ^_^ As much fun and as "period" as it would be to chase the dragon in-game, I think the concept could definitely be spread out. How, you ask? Well, the books The Crimson Petal and the White and The Great Stink both offer up a very messy, filthy, vice-ridden view of Victorian London, one in which characters have to keep their vices hidden, lest they ruin their reputation. I think The Great Stink is probably the more direct and pungent of the two, given that one of the main characters is a cutter who ventures down into the sewers (!) to slash himself with a razor blade, as he desperately tries to cope with his horrible memories of serving in the Boer War.
Incidentally, I stopped reading that book because it became far too grim and depressing, but your post makes me want to check it out from the library again. What fun! ^_^
Anyway, why not use something along the lines of "shame"? I really like the assonance of "Affliction, Addiction...", and I think you should absolutely keep it as a title, but unless you want to tidy up the role of "virtue" a little, so it's more of a direct opposite of "addiction", you might need to change it around a bit. Of course, going with the concept of "shame", which evokes secrecy and the like, you could make addiction refer to something, *anything*, that your character can't stop doing, but is deeply ashamed of - pederasty, heavy drinking, thrill killing, whoring... Queen Victoria gave us quite a repressive little era in history, and even our Intrepid Heroes could very well be on their way to "the abyss [gazing] into [them]", to quote Nietzsche.

On that note, don't hesitate to consider design from that angle - these people fight devils, real devils, and accordingly, as you've already established, they are gazing too long into the abyss themselves.  While a character must let one of his burdens "overtake" its corresponding boon to be retired from play, that's not to say those currently in play are nice. What sort of men (sorry, Victorian period and all) would spend their Saturday nights looking for demons in the cellar? What are they trying to prove, or to run away from, exactly, that drives them into the arms of such danger? These are extreme personalities, to be sure. That being said, perhaps "virtue" (whatever name you stick with, that one or another) is what the character is proud of: accomplishments, children, successful business ventures...

I have to admit that I disagree with Double King about Ennui - you've set up a few examples for us of what it is, and sketched out a very specific sort of theme that it entails. I think it's wonderful as-is! Far too many games encourage troubled characters to have a "derangement", and it smacks too much of Vampire: the Masquerade and the general ilk of White Wolf games. This is something that's not explicitly madness, but certainly hangs a pallor over the character.

P.S. I just noticed that you said 18th century, not 19th. If that's set in stone, I say scrap the Nietzsche stuff. Not the idea, necessarily, but of course you wouldn't want to slip quotations into the game manual, or anything. ^_^

While I'm on the subject, what is it that draws out the 18th century for you? Do what you're passionate about, of course, but why not choose the 19th century instead? As a prospective player, I would definitely have a better grasp of the 19th century's events, appearance, and outlook.   

[Armoury99]

As an enthusiastic lurker with little experience, allow to jump right in. First off:

sold.  i'll cut you a check today.  i want this game.

Yeah, pretty much... so nice start!

will be a list of descriptors that players will choose for each boon and burden. I don't know whether this will be a dice pool or a bonus to a single die, or some combination of the two.

As far as mechanics go, in this choice my personal feeling would be towards a pool of dice. My reasoning isn't exactly logical, but multiple dice just seem to sit better with the concept demons and angels perched on the shoulders of my wastrel. Its seems easily understood to roll (for example) one dice for each point of Boon or Burden, trying for a specific target number, with the number of dice that make it an indicator of how strongly they're influence by it.

Having said that though, I can't help but think that playing cards might fit the period better then dice (again, just personal opinion). Can't actually help mechanically in that regard however, other than to suggest maybe one of the (several) card games they play in Pride and Prejudice?

It might be interesting to score the stats based on a Strongly Agree/Agree/Neither Agree nor Disagree/Disagree/Strongly Disagree questionnaire for each of these statements.

It might be interesting to somehow work character generation that way too. That would be a nice feel.

Fading Suns and Pendragon are two games off the top of my head that you might want to check out for ideas.

Only played a little Fading Suns, but I've both played and GMed a lot of Pendragon over the years and the traits system works beautifully; reinforcing players' decisions without straitjacketing them, and both the virtues and the vices have plenty of practical uses.

if I wanted to play as Lord Byron, where would "I conceived a child with my half-sister" go?

Under "Dark Secrets" would be my opinion.  Given the tone of the game (...that I'm imagining in my head even now), I'd say that rather than the Call of Cthulhu principle ('you start normal and slowly discover the truth and go mad'), I'd go with the Kult background principle: 'You've a PC because you've encountered supernatural nastiness and are half-damned already." This also provides at least one plot hook integral to each PC - a very personal demon, so to speak.

I'd like to suggest something in the vein of Debauchery, Degeneration, or Decadence in place of Addiction. 

I was going to suggest Taboo but Debauchery sounds so much better. I'd have assumed that depending on my Debauchery stat I was mildly addicted to a number of things anyway.

With regard to the 18th/19th century point above, the golden age of the (English) rake stretches from the return of Charles II in 1660 right up to the death of George IV (1830), so you've a lot of ground to play with, and potentially some hard decisions to make: Arch Rake Lord Rochester is mid-late 17th for example, while your gold standard Hellfire Club exists in the 18th. Perhaps you could include setting options for several in the game - or perhaps even include a bloodline aspect (also something Pendragon does well). The tale of your rakish family down the ages would be a nice touch, and it would also allow players to enjoy the suicide, siphilis, liver-failure and other PC ending activities (not to mansion the actual forces of darkness), as just another stage in the development of their 'Player Character Family'.

Hope at least some of that is helpful.
This idea has tons of promise.

[Abkajud]

Oh, good thinking, Armoury! A "family line" mechanic could really tap into a Lovecraftian fallen-line theme, without having to port over all the baggage of the Mythos (or a cousin to the Mythos, at any rate).

Brennan, I'm starting to see the appeal of the 18th century - I initially was very focused on a sort of From Hell/Sleepy Hollow feel (what's with my Johnny Depp fixation today?), but if there's as much dread and darkness among the characters as there is among their quarry, that's really quite compelling! "Debauchery" would definitely make a nice opposition to "Virtue", too - powerful men like the PCs should have all sorts of skeletons in their closets.

*rubbing my hands together* This is an exciting thing, indeed! I'm intrigued by the prospect of playing in the American Colonies, for one thing, and for another, I think your initial mechanic suggestion (roll both, decide which one to play) works very well - choosing *after* you roll means that you might have to make a tough, meaningful decision between success and the integrity of the character. Again, how awesome is that! It seems to take a nod from Polaris, but finds a way to do it without being explicitly a tragedy. In fact, the story would actually go rather differently depending on how dedicated a player is to "preserving" his character - someone who wants to work on lowering the Burden first would probably face letting a monster escape, only to wreak havoc again, while someone who wanted to destroy it at any cost could very well be consumed rather quickly.

Question - how much "ground" does each dice roll cover? And what's the ratio between gaining Burden points and choosing the Burden die-results over the Boon? If there was a fairly close 1:1 ratio of action-to-Burden/Boon roll, I could see it being a very quick, deadly game indeed, but if you had some kind of "add them all up" system, and decided at the end of the scene (based on Burden/Boon choices) which way the PC was leaning before changing point totals, that might give a little bit more tension to the characters' internal struggle, without throwing them into a fiery furnace (so to speak) right off the bat.

[Armoury99]

Oh, good thinking, Armoury! A "family line" mechanic could really tap into a Lovecraftian fallen-line theme,

Glad you like it. Unfortunately I've no idea how to implement such a thing.

if you had some kind of "add them all up" system, and decided at the end of the scene (based on Burden/Boon choices) which way the PC was leaning before changing point totals, that might give a little bit more tension to the characters' internal struggle, without throwing them into a fiery furnace (so to speak) right off the bat.

I like the idea of adding up the Burdon/Boon points over the course of an encounter (or adventure, or whatever). Damnation would certainly feel a lot more like a slippery slope then ('the road to hell is paved with good intentions' and all that).

[Armoury99]

One more brain-stormy-thing and a question:  The only other ideas I have at this stage is an answer to that traditional horror rpg question - namely why isn't someone else sorting out this problem? In fitting with the dark theme and (possibly figurative) demons of the game, it occured to me that perhaps the dark forces of the supernatural can only be perceived by those with in touch with the darkness in their souls (those who have 'stared into the Abyss'), i.e. PCs with Burdens. The noble, the virtuous, the innocent... they're literally incapable of seeing the evils that our heroes must face.