New tricks for die step systems?

[SpoDaddy]

I've always loved die step systems aesthetically, and I'd like to use one in the game I'm developing, but I want to pull off something new with it (probably something extra derived from the roll but I'm open to all ideas).  Anyone have thoughts, ideas, or suggestions on die step systems and what would make them more impressive?  I know I'm being vague; I'm sort of trolling for ideas and inspirations.

[GregStolze]

What do you mean when you say "die step system"?

-G.

[Brennen Reece]

I had an idea where if you roll the highest number on a die, you could roll the next highest die and then keep the best of the two rolls.

For instance, I roll a d6 and land on 6. I then get to roll 1d8 and land on 7. I get to use 7 as my result.

Perhaps if I landed on 8, I could roll a d10, etc...

[Guy Srinivasan]

What's your game about?

[SpoDaddy]

What do you mean when you say "die step system"?

-G.

By "die step system" I mean a system that uses die types to rank attributes or skills (Savage Worlds, Deadlands, Earthdawn, etc.)  I think the big thing I want to fix with die step systems is the limited ability range (D4-D12 is only 5 levels).  The idea I'm trying to develop right now is a system that uses die types to measure attributes and a static bonus to measure skills.  So, for example, if your Agility is a D10 and your shooting skill is 4 you roll a D10 and add 4 to the result.   

What's your game about?

Murderers seeking redemption on an alien world by using their talent for killing to defend an angelic and helpless race, essentially.

[SpoDaddy]

Sorry, messed up the link above.  It's http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=26517.0

[jag]

I had an idea where if you roll the highest number on a die, you could roll the next highest die and then keep the best of the two rolls.

For instance, I roll a d6 and land on 6. I then get to roll 1d8 and land on 7. I get to use 7 as my result.

Perhaps if I landed on 8, I could roll a d10, etc...

Not to be negative, but this seems like a bad system.  In particular, if i've rolled a 6 on a d6, there's no way i'd want to roll a d8 instead -- the average there is 4.5, less than my 6.  So this system penalizes someone for rolling their max (which i assume is not what you wanted).

James

[Vulpinoid]

I've toyed with a die step system a few times.

With a d2 (heads or tails) you get to add in a sixth level.

My favoured system along these lines is to have the dice represent attributes while a flat modifier represents a skill on top of it (skills would be ranked from 1 to 6 for a typical character). Simply, roll and add. So you've basically stumbled across the system that I've found to work reasonably well.

If you wanted anything beyond the regular realm of expertise, then this becomes "super"-natural. Attributes above the d12 step simply count as +2 for every level beyond...d12+2, d12+4, d12+6...it doesn't have to follow the die pattern because it is beyond the realms of what is natural.

Using this type of system, a natural 1 on any die counts as a failure. So the higher dice not only give you a better chance at a higher number but they give you a lower chance of an automatic fail. The levels above d12 still have a 1 in 12 chance of failure if a natural 1 is rolled, but this is offset by the potentially far better high results.

The question then arises about situation where a weak character faces a strong one. d4 in an attribute +1 in a skill (minimum result of 3 unless an auto-fail occurs, maximum of 5) versus d10 in an attribute and +5 in a skill (minimum result of 6 unless an auto-fail occurs, maximum of 15). How does the lower character even hope to compete with the stronger?

Do you allow a character to explode their die (rerolling if the roll the highest possible natural face value, then adding the result)? Do you allow characters access to a willpower or destiny type of trait that lets them upgrade a die to the next level under certain circumstances? Do you leave things as they are and have this as a social commentary on the weak versus the strong?

In one of my version of this mechanic, I played with an even more extreme notion. Every player has a default difficulty equal to half of their die type when targeted by specific actions.

You use a d12, my target number is 6.

I use a d6, your target number is 3.

I've gotta roll a 6 or better (including skill bonuses) to affect you with my die. Unlikely unless I've got a good skill up my sleeve.
You've only gotta roll a 3 or better (including skill bonuses) to affect me. Pretty good chance even without a good skill.

If I'm unable to reach your Target Number at all, I just fail. Unless I spend some kind of points to push up my die size, or I co-ordinate my attack with a couple of people (where a target number might reduce by 1 for every additional person targeting the same victim this turn).

There are dozens of ways to play with this simple mechanic, these are just a couple of the options I've thought of over the years.

If you want more, PM me...or I can keep offering them on this thread. But for the moment I'll stop in case I'm just broing you with numbers.

V

[GregStolze]

See, my immediate thought with "usin' all the different die types" is to find some kind of scheme where picking your die type has different tactical meanings.  In fact, I went there already with my lurvly meatbots but that's hardly the only way to do it.  Consider Button Men. 

Or look at the One Roll Engine: I've half-considered a variation where, instead of always rolling d10s, you can roll any combination of any damn type of dice you want.  Wanna roll all d20s on your 7d pool?  Okay.  Your odds of getting a match are radically reduced, but if you get that rare 2x20 you are The Man.  Or would you like to roll all d4s, be assured of getting a minimum of either three sets or a 4x set?  Sure, your height is, by necessity, going to suck very much bottom, but still.  Assured success.  So a way to handle THAT would be that each level of skill lets you push your die type one step in both directions.  So...

Skill 1 = roll d10s
Skill 2 = roll d8, 10 or 12.
Skill 3 = 6, 8 , 10, 12, 20
Skill 4 = 4, 6, 8 , 10, 12, 20

Or, even fiddlier, every time your skill goes up  you can extend your range one step.  This not only gives you more levels, but lets you customize your character.  So one guy with Skill 3 can roll d8, 10, 12, or 20 -- he's mostly extended upward in search of more Height.  Another guy with Skill 3 races for the bottom and can roll d4, 6, 8, 10.

The trick with warping the ORE that way would be to balance Height and Width even more carefully.  Throw EDs and MDs into the mix and who KNOWS what you'll come up with.

# # #

Another option is a kind of conceptual chasm idea.  (Oooh, doesn't THAT sound fancy?)  Essentially, it's where you can roll whatever types of dice you want, but with different rewards for high and low numbers.  The easy way I came up with for this is through matches (again).  To wit: your two results from one die roll are (1) the highest single number showing on any roll and (2) the highest number that turned up on more than one die.  (If you don't get any matches, result #2 defaults to zero.) 

So, for example, suppose the task is "Inspire a crowd to buy your book."  The mechanic could work out that the high number indicates how many of them you persuade.  The match number shows how strong the persuasion is, ranging from 0 ("meh") to 20 ("I will gladly die if I can finish that book first").  With my 5d pool, I'd probably roll 4d4+d20.  Though if the price is high, even an x4 match number might not be enough...

-G. 

[Willow]

You could use other die types too- my boyfriend has some d14s, d16s, and maybe even some d18s he's dying to use.

[J. Scott Timmerman]

The simplest way I can see to keep the same system and add more steps is to treat the odd numbers in between die-steps (3, 5, 7, 9, 11) as the digit higher with a minus sign next to it, i.e. 4-, 6-, 8-, 10- and 12-.  Then all you have to do is force the player with a minus to reroll if they roll the highest digit.  This is effectively the same as rolling a die with an odd number of sides, without any dividing.

In your original post, you mentioned wanting to get more out of your die roll than just success/failure.  It might be interesting if even and odd numbers (or multiples of 3 or primes or whatever) have special meaning.  Maybe even/odd numbers decide who gets to narrate success or failure.  Maybe primes make a roll more extreme or dramatic (with primes occurring most often [50%] on the smaller dice d4/d6/d8).  Perhaps a character can increase their results with points only if they hit their lucky number. 

Based on the description of your setting, it might be cool to have some middle ground between success and failure.  Your characters are trying to reform and redeem themselves, and may take guilt or mental damage by utterly destroying an enemy, evil alien or not.  In this middle ground, you have the option of succeeding at the expense of doing it with bloodthirsty brutality.  You can choose to fail and wait for a complete success (say, capturing the enemy without killing it).  Or, you can choose to end the fight right here and now, but fall behind on your character goals of redemption.  Mechanically, guilt might impede advancement, or it might negatively affect attempts at nonviolent actions.